1 Wednesday, 20 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we've --

6 THE ACCUSED: Mr. May, excuse me. Excuse me.

7 JUDGE MAY: No. Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic. We're going to

8 deal, first of all, with legal argument. If you have any other matters,

9 we'll deal with that at the end when we finish this argument. I want to

10 raise something with Mr. Nice.

11 THE ACCUSED: Yes, but it is urgent.

12 JUDGE MAY: What is the urgent matter?

13 THE ACCUSED: Completely personal.

14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. What is it?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked yesterday of you that the

16 programme of work should not be changed because I said that the prison

17 administration authorised a visit for tomorrow afternoon, and you accepted

18 that. You said the schedule wouldn't be changed.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, yesterday, late in the

21 afternoon, the head of the prison informed me that the Dutch Foreign

22 Ministry will not, this time, issue a visa to my wife, which it regularly

23 did beforehand at a written request from your Registry and the Detention

24 Unit's administration. And this time, too, the Detention Unit and the

25 Registry did send in a request in the usual manner on time. They did so

1 well ahead of time.

2 I should like to prevail upon you to intervene to allow me to have

3 this visit, because this is ill-treatment once again, mistreatment of me,

4 because I will be completely isolated. My visits are usually not allowed,

5 and this time my wife's visit has been curtailed. It is the only weekend

6 that has Friday off for her to be able to make that visit.

7 May I also remind you that other prisoners are entitled to visits

8 and have visits for two weeks without any interruption. They have two

9 weekly visits without interruption. The most I have been allowed to have

10 visits for is three days and on one occasion five days, but this time, for

11 completely unknown reasons, this visit has not been approved. I consider

12 this to be part of my physical mistreatment.

13 So please could you prevail and do what you can to make the visit

14 possible? I don't think that the Dutch Ministry has the right to curtail

15 my right to a visit, and I don't think it has anything to do with the

16 affairs conducted here. So could you please do your best to arrange

17 everything with the Detention Unit and everything else, the travelling

18 arrangements and the visa which has this time been -- not been approved.

19 Thank you.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we have no powers in relation to this,

22 but we hear what you say, and we will pass on what you've said, and we'll

23 raise it with the Registry now.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

1 MR. NICE: We wish to call this morning Kevin Curtis. It was the

2 suggestion yesterday by the amici that there are issues arising, I

3 think -- or in fact, it may have been the Court itself that raised them.

4 Can I set out why, in our submission, this evidence ought to be admitted

5 and admitted in full at this stage.

6 The witness is the lead investigator for the Kosovo part of this

7 trial, and the evidence that we seek to lead from him is a general history

8 of the investigation into the trial -- sorry, into the matters subject to

9 the trial, together with an overall analysis and overview of the effect of

10 the evidence so far as the killing sites, as they're described, are

11 concerned.

12 Now, the Chamber indicated yesterday that because there is, of

13 course, hearsay involved in his producing evidence of that kind, that it

14 might not be valuable to the Chamber. Such evidence is, of course, not

15 barred by the Rules of this Tribunal, which doesn't have a rule excluding

16 hearsay, and evidence of, as I am informed and understand, exactly the

17 same general type has been admitted in other cases, or at least certainly

18 in one other case.

19 In Krstic, for example, I believe, the investigator, Ruez, gave

20 evidence along exactly the same lines, summarising the overall effect of

21 what witness statements revealed in circumstances where, as here, the

22 Prosecution adduced live evidence in relation to particular parts of that

23 overall account given by the investigator. So it's not excluded, it

24 always being a matter for the Chamber to decide in due course what weight

25 to attach to any evidence, in particular, of course, to evidence that is

1 categorised in other jurisdictions as hearsay.

2 In our submission, there are two distinct reasons why the evidence

3 should be submitted here, one in a sense procedural and one substantive,

4 and I'll deal with them in order.

5 Looking at the trial overall, from a procedural point of view, as

6 the Chamber knows, it's necessary for us to achieve economies wherever

7 possible because of the scale of the case and because of the inevitable

8 limitations of time. The Chamber knows already that amongst the things we

9 are doing to try to save time is to present, in due course, dossiers of

10 material relating to particular sites. This was partly at the request of

11 the Chamber and has been temporarily halted pending resolution of

12 admissibility issues there, but that's one way we're hoping to achieve

13 economies. And of course, as indicated now for months, I think, our

14 intention overall is to make extensive use of the provisions of 92 bis of

15 our Rules, which allow written statements to go in as evidence, subject to

16 particular safeguards and subject to representations that the accused may

17 make in due course. I'll come back to 92 bis in a minute. These are

18 amongst the things we have to do to try and achieve proper economy.

19 Let me now tell you a little bit about the overall statistics.

20 Over 1.300 statements were taken from witnesses in Kosovo, or in relation

21 to what happened in Kosovo, touching on crime-based matters. Of course,

22 it would be quite impossible for all those witnesses to give live

23 evidence, even if a so-called crime-based witness's evidence only takes

24 one of our one-and-a-half-hour sessions, and that might be optimistic. It

25 wouldn't be possible to have that number of witnesses or anything like

1 it.

2 The Chamber will know that the Prosecution made a selection of

3 events that it could properly hope to deal with in a reasonable period of

4 time, given its duty to prove that events complained of were widespread or

5 systematic. And I think of the 24 sites that one way or another are

6 subject to the indictment, or in respect of those 24 sites, well over 20

7 statements, on average, witness statements per site have been obtained.

8 The same point arises and has always been in the Prosecution's

9 mind; of course it wouldn't be possible for us to call live evidence from

10 20 witnesses for that number of sites. These are entirely averaged

11 figures, but it wouldn't be possible if this trial were to be dealt with

12 in a reasonable and timely way. So there has been a reduction of the

13 number of witnesses the Prosecution would seek to present. First it was

14 down to ten per site, and then - and this is just at the time that I

15 became involved in this case - it became reduced further so that in

16 respect of each incident or each site, however we define these matters,

17 there will be something like five witnesses, and the present intention of

18 the Prosecution being to deal with those by one or two live witnesses per

19 site and, again subject to safeguards and representations, the balancing

20 three or four sites being dealt with by adduction through the provisions

21 of Rule 92 bis.

22 We hope, in presenting evidence in that way, that we will be

23 providing sufficient evidence to establish both the substantive crimes and

24 the widespread or systematic basis, but the evidence is necessarily not as

25 complete for any individual sites as it would be if we either had all the

1 ten witnesses or, indeed, I suppose for the events overall, if we had more

2 of those balance of the 1.300 witnesses that we've had to exclude. And

3 thus, for this witness -- or if this witness gives evidence, as the

4 Prosecution would submit would be desirable, then the Chamber will, first

5 of all, have more material to give it a fuller and more comprehensive view

6 of events both individually and collectively.

7 And the Chamber will only have to look at one, probably any one

8 sample of the witness's statement - and I know the Chamber now has the

9 statement before it - to look at one of these accounts - Bela Crkva, for

10 example, on page 6 - to understand how an incident that's described there

11 will necessarily be being described in a -- not an incomplete way but to

12 some degree a necessarily limited way if we only adduce the witnesses that

13 we are currently intending to adduce by way of live witnesses or 92 bis.

14 The evidence would be entirely sufficient, say the Prosecution, but it

15 wouldn't give the Chamber the complete picture that emerges from the

16 officers being able to consider all the other statements.

17 So our first position is that it would be appropriate to take this

18 evidence, to decide in due course the degree to which the evidence should

19 carry weight but to have the evidence now and to have it in mind giving

20 context. And this is very important, and it's important, in our

21 respectful submission, for the Chamber and for the accused to have this

22 evidence before it.

23 First, the Chamber may, in its own judgement and in light of the

24 approach taken by the accused who is now clearly engaging in the trial

25 process - and I'll come back to that in a second as well - the Chamber

1 may, in its own judgement, decide that in respect of particular areas or

2 particular topics, it would wish to have further evidence. The Chamber

3 does not, as I understand it at the moment, have the intention of looking

4 at witness statements itself, and so it cannot know what the balance of

5 available material is. By having this summary of the officer available to

6 it, it can know where there would be more material that it could seek

7 either the Prosecution to call or indeed call itself if it judged that to

8 be desirable or necessary, and so it will be extremely valuable to the

9 Chamber to have this summary before it.

10 I now turn to the accused, who, as I say, is engaging in the trial

11 process, and that is enormously helpful for the trial process and for all

12 of us, but for reasons he's given or for other reasons, he doesn't

13 consider the printed material that's provided to him. The statements

14 reviewed by the investigator Kevin Curtis will have been disclosed to him

15 in one form or another, but it appears he will not have reviewed them

16 himself or apparently have taken the advantage of having them reviewed by

17 anyone else.

18 It's actually very important that the accused should know what the

19 overall material is in order for him to be better informed when it comes

20 to cross-examining or indeed making representations to the Chamber about

21 sufficiency or insufficiency of evidence or making representations about

22 whatever evidence should be called or indeed, in due course, seeking to

23 call evidence from the same collection of evidence himself should that be

24 his choice. And so by having the officer, the investigator, give evidence

25 in this way, which won't take a very great deal of time but which will

1 provide a snapshot of the overall available material, we will be enabling

2 the accused to perform his functions that much the better.

3 Those are really the procedural reasons why -- procedural and

4 associated reasons why, in our respectful submission, this material should

5 be before the Chamber.

6 I then turn to the substantive reason, and it's this: From the

7 accused's opening remarks, it would appear that there may be a head-on

8 challenge to crime-base witnesses if they give evidence in line with what

9 their statements forecast they're going to say. In those circumstances,

10 it may be substantively significant to discover from the officer, from the

11 investigator, that there are signed statements of a consistent kind from

12 the numbers of witnesses of which he can speak. So that there are those

13 two entirely separate reasons why, in our submission, this evidence should

14 be for the Chamber.

15 Can I just turn to two other matters, one I forecast and one I

16 must deal with. 92 bis, just so that we can have a view to where the

17 trial will be going shortly: The Chamber will have seen from the latest

18 version of the witness list that it has had, which I think was dated the

19 7th of February, and there's an updated version that I'll have made

20 available to all parties as soon as I can, but --

21 JUDGE MAY: We have the 8th of February.

22 MR. NICE: Well, I don't think that's going to be materially

23 different. And if we look at page 1, we see, in fact, we come to

24 deportations first, which the second proposed witness, Steve Spargo, will

25 deal with, but the overall pattern of evidence is the same.

1 The Chamber will see that, using the projected witness numbers on

2 the left-hand side, numbers 4 and 5 witnesses give evidence of a

3 particular location, and the intention is then to place before the Chamber

4 the 92 bis statements of three further witnesses and then to move on in a

5 live witness, number 6, to the next site, and to follow that with the 92

6 bis witnesses that relate to that site, and so on. I should say that the

7 list has got slightly out of order so far as connecting 92 bis and live

8 witnesses at the end, but I'll have that corrected in the next day or so.

9 So that's the approach that we were intending to take. That's the

10 approach we were intending to take in order to make matters as

11 comprehensive to Your Honours as could be possible at any given time. And

12 when we come to the sites known as killing sites later on, we'd open that

13 particular passage of evidence with the presentation, if acceptable, of

14 the dossier that would relate to the killing site, seeing how much of that

15 material could go in by way of admission or agreement, and then have the

16 live witness and then follow it with the 92 bis witnesses.

17 So that that's the plan that has been made for the adaption of

18 evidence. The accused has always been on notice by the provision of these

19 witness lists for the last month, in law, of the 92 bis witnesses we

20 intended to adduce. I suspect that he will tell us that he hasn't read

21 those lists and therefore hasn't considered those statements. And it may

22 be convenient, perhaps today, perhaps after one of the adjournments, if we

23 give some thought to the best way of safeguarding his interests so far as

24 this is concerned.

25 One way to deal with it would be as follows: For -- and perhaps

1 with necessary abbreviation of time otherwise provided for in the Rules as

2 may be necessary, to give him notice publicly, before a particular witness

3 is about to be called live, of the written statements that we seek to

4 adduce thereafter under the provisions of 92 bis, possibly summarising

5 very briefly what they will say. Because if he's not alert, or alerted,

6 for whatever reason, to the 92 bis witness statements we seek to adduce,

7 then his cross-examination may suffer as a result, and that would be

8 unfortunate, and we obviously desire to help him. But that's a problem,

9 and I'd perhaps return to it a little later when the Chamber has had an

10 opportunity to think about it.

11 Then the last matter that I must deal with is this: Of the over

12 1.300 witness statements taken altogether in relation to crime base of

13 Kosovo, a large proportion has been served on the accused in one way or

14 another and on the amici, either as the original confirming materials or

15 since then. The balance of witness statements are being further reviewed

16 for Rule 68 purposes, particularly in light of the accused's indication of

17 his defence from his opening remarks, and in that way we hope to safeguard

18 his interests further, handing over, of course, any statements that appear

19 to be Rule 68 relevant.

20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, let me quote you. You mentioned an overall

21 analysis and overview of the effect of the evidence.

22 MR. NICE: Yes.

23 JUDGE KWON: And does it have to be done necessarily in the form

24 of testimony of a witness? I'm asking whether it can be done in the form

25 of opening statements or in pre-trial brief or any brief during the

1 trial. What's the difference between the arguments and evidence? And

2 certainly the witness is entitled to testimony, what he knows, but the

3 latter part of the statement -- I particularly read through the latter

4 part of it. The overall analysis is -- I think it's not a kind -- it's

5 totally hearsay and is of little probative value. What would you make the

6 distinction between the arguments and evidence on this?

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour says that because it's hearsay, it's of

8 little probative value. I would respectfully suggest that in this

9 Tribunal, hearsay material is, of course, of a probative value to be

10 assessed in due course. It may be little, it may be nil, or it may be

11 substantial. But because it's capable of having evidential value, that's

12 a reason for adducing it through a witness rather than simply advancing it

13 in an opening statement or in a written brief, where the material may be

14 said to have no evidential value. So it has to come in as evidence to

15 have some evidential value.

16 As to its evidential value, that will depend on a number of

17 factors, including the degree of cross-examination on it or on associated

18 pieces of evidence by the accused, or indeed by the amici, and will also

19 depend on such matters as the degree of consistency of evidence that may

20 be spoken of if he's cross-examined by the witness, and so on. So that in

21 our submission, of course hearsay, for obvious reasons, and in light of

22 our own sometimes particular backgrounds in systems which exclude hearsay,

23 of course hearsay has to be viewed cautiously. But the appropriate

24 starting point, in our submission, is that it has value and that its value

25 is to be assessed in due course, and that explains why we seek to put it

1 in as evidence.

2 JUDGE KWON: What I'd like to suggest is that the overall analysis

3 could be done in the form of brief, and if you are -- in terms of time and

4 efficiency, and if you are arguing that you need some more 92 bis

5 statements or more witnesses, the Court will allow them in due course.

6 MR. NICE: Well, as to the last point, obviously we are very aware

7 of the timetable that has been set for us and we are by no means

8 confident, particularly in light of cross-examination, that there may not

9 be difficulties in meeting that timetable. And although we would, of

10 course, be optimistic that justified applications for additional witnesses

11 would be met, we have to work on the basis that we may be kept to our

12 present list of witnesses.

13 As to analysis -- and I can simply perhaps take Your Honour back

14 to the example I gave from the witness statement, Bela Crkva. Just simply

15 as an example, and I'm not going to read it out, for obvious reasons, but

16 if the Court is good enough just to read through it and see the sort of

17 details that are covered overall, the number of different issues that are

18 covered, you'll see there's a large range of material covered and simply

19 can't be covered by just one, or even necessarily in this case, the three

20 witnesses currently identified, because it's quite a large story. And

21 you'll see this on, I think, your list.

22 If you have the 8th of February witness list, you'll find it on

23 page 15 of that list, witnesses numbered 50, 51, and 52, with 92 bis

24 witnesses 83, 84, and 85. So this is an exception because of the scale of

25 the event. We've actually proposed to call three witnesses rather than

1 two or one. But even so, the complete story is unlikely to be given by

2 those witnesses, and the overall analysis of which the officer speaks

3 would make for a more complete story, a more complete account, and would

4 enable the Chamber and the accused to know both more about the events and,

5 if there are issues to be joined between the accused and the Prosecution,

6 enable him and the Chamber to know better how to deal with it.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Mr. Nice.

9 Mr. Kay.

10 MR. KAY: Your Honours, the issue here is the conclusions of this

11 investigating police officer who has read a large number of statements of

12 witnesses and then presents his own conclusions upon the content of that

13 written material. There's no objection to him giving evidence about the

14 means of investigation and events that he organised or caused to be done

15 as part of the overall investigation so that Your Honours are advised of

16 matters concerning geography, population, and other relevant details.

17 The objection is to him really performing the role which Your

18 Honour has correctly identified was really performed in the opening

19 statement of the Prosecutor where they outlined their allegations against

20 the accused and stated the events that happened that are the subject

21 matter of the indictment. And really, this witness is doing no more, no

22 less than that. He's repeating the allegations of the Prosecutor based on

23 material that's been read by him. And in our judgement, it doesn't

24 advance the issues within the case for the Trial Chamber to properly

25 determine the charges against the accused. It's an analysis of a large

1 number of these sites with reference to events that he was not a witness

2 to, descriptions of men describing killings or other events as being the

3 responsibility of another party, and it's our submission that that fails

4 the test to be properly considered as evidence in a trial.

5 We understand that the Rules are wider within this Tribunal and it

6 is a Tribunal investigating events and matters, as well as a court, and

7 there is not a rule against hearsay, but courts have been cautious about

8 the admission of such evidence because the Judges are aware of the

9 problems that can arise with it. And on the scale of hearsay evidence,

10 this is really the most extreme, where a witness has read the statements

11 of a large number of people, then presents his conclusions to the Court.

12 And really, the responsibility for drawing those conclusions are those of

13 the Judges who are trying the issue, and that is the responsibility of the

14 Judges in this courtroom. So we say that this evidence carries with it

15 great dangers in that form.

16 I don't know if I can assist the Court any further.

17 JUDGE MAY: No. If you have the statement of Mr. Curtis.

18 MR. KAY: Yes.

19 JUDGE MAY: The Chamber's had a chance to look at it. If you look

20 at page 4, there is there a description of the actions of the Prosecution,

21 how they went about their investigation.

22 MR. KAY: I don't see there can be any objection to that, the

23 means and procedures of the investigator.

24 JUDGE MAY: Page 4 and on to page 5. And I suppose the

25 description of where a village is, for instance, if that's of assistance,

1 again the witness can give evidence of that.

2 MR. KAY: Geography and orientation and layout, as well as maps

3 produced. Again, we have no objection. Those are matters that are

4 plainly useful to the Court.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 MR. NICE: The accused would -- I'm sorry.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry. The accused plainly wants to --

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, in a moment.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we're going to exclude this evidence

13 apart from evidence of geography. Is there anything else you want to say

14 to us but on this very narrow point, that's all?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to say something with

16 respect to what I heard a moment ago. We are dealing with the suggestion

17 of a complete abuse of the proceedings and prolonging the time for

18 repeating the indictment and the job done by the Prosecution.

19 We have heard the Prosecution. We listened to the Prosecutor and

20 his associates and now we have to go on to listen to the Prosecutor's

21 other staff members, everything within the corps of the Prosecution, all

22 of which should have been contained in the opening statement of the

23 Prosecutor. And in an illegal way, this repetition and the Prosecutor's

24 accusations are being repeated to hurl these untruths and mask the truth.

25 So we're going further and further away now.

1 First of all we had the Prosecutor, then we had his advisors, then

2 we had the clerks and staff, and we'll probably get down to the

3 Prosecutor's driver and hairdresser and so on and so forth.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we're with you. We're going to exclude

5 it, so there's no need to make the point again.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then I have another thing to

7 say. I heard a name mentioned, Kevin Curtis. If I understood the name

8 correctly, it was Kevin Curtis. Kevin Curtis is an individual who

9 committed a crime, the crime of my unlawful arrest in Belgrade. He was

10 the perpetrator of that.

11 JUDGE MAY: This is not an appropriate point. We're now going to

12 rule.

13 Mr. Milosevic, be quiet, please.

14 We've considered this evidence. We've had the opportunity of

15 considering it during the adjournment. The reason we're going to exclude

16 it is this: that it is the evidence of an investigator who's read a great

17 many statements and come to various conclusions about them. Those

18 conclusions he wishes to report to the Court.

19 The first objection, of course, is that this is purely hearsay

20 evidence given by a witness who was not present, who didn't hear or see

21 the events which he is going to relate. The fact that it is hearsay does

22 not prevent evidence being given in this Tribunal; we admit hearsay

23 evidence. But on the other hand, we do not admit evidence which is of

24 limited probative value, if any, and in our judgement, to have the

25 conclusions of the investigator relayed to us is of no probative value, as

1 Judge Kwon has already pointed out.

2 In these circumstances, what we would have heard would have in

3 fact been a repetition of the Prosecution case about these various sites.

4 As such, it is of no assistance to us, in our view. We shall hear the

5 evidence of the witnesses. We will hear the submissions of counsel. That

6 will inform us, first of all, of the evidence and of the case.

7 In these circumstances, the evidence will not be admitted. I do

8 point out that there are two of us here today and not three. If the

9 Prosecution want to try to have the evidence admitted with three, they can

10 do so.

11 Now, it's a matter for you, Mr. Nice, whether you want to call the

12 witness on those matters which have been identified in the course of

13 argument, that is, the means of investigation, the geography. Whether

14 it's of any assistance to have that, I don't know. It's a matter for you

15 whether you want to call it or not. We've got maps. No doubt we shall

16 hear about the exhumations in due course when we come to the individual

17 sites.

18 MR. NICE: My current disposition is probably not to call the

19 officer at this stage, possibly call him later, but I'd like just a moment

20 to discuss that, if I may. I'm certainly not going to seek to overturn

21 your ruling by the presence of His Honour Judge Robinson. It may be that

22 we will return to the issue or some of the issues in due course. I hope

23 not, but it may be, but that's another reason for putting these witnesses

24 back, I think in principle possibly not calling them at all, which will

25 help with the limitation on witnesses to which we are subject in any

1 event.

2 Before I seek just a short adjournment to decide whether to call

3 Mr. Curtis or Mr. Spargo at all, would it be convenient to turn to the

4 92 bis problem? Because if I don't call either of them, then we'll be

5 directly into the first crime-base witness. If we look at the list again,

6 the list of the 8th of February --

7 JUDGE MAY: Before you get there, there's Mr. Spargo.

8 MR. NICE: I'm sorry?

9 JUDGE MAY: Would it not be convenient to deal with him?

10 MR. NICE: Absolutely. If different considerations arise, yes, of

11 course.

12 JUDGE MAY: Well, the different considerations, let me say we've

13 had the statement and we're grateful we have looked at it, and he produces

14 the map. Now, it seems to me the map may well be admissible as a tool,

15 something which can be used during the course of the trial. Clearly the

16 witness can't give evidence about what happened in the various sites,

17 but -- and indeed whether a witness is necessary to produce the map, I

18 don't know. It's something for you to consider. But certainly at first

19 blush, it would appear there may be more merit in that particular

20 argument.

21 MR. NICE: Very well. Well, can we -- can I have a word with

22 Mr. Ryneveld about that? And what I was going to invite the Chamber to

23 consider while I'm doing that is that, one way or another, we're likely to

24 be on to the first crime-base witness, who is here in the building, very

25 soon. If the Chamber looks at the witness list of the 8th of February,

1 there are two witnesses, numbers 4 and 5, and there are then proposed

2 three 92 bis witnesses. As I say, the accused has been on notice for a

3 considerable period of time that the intention is to produce those

4 witnesses by the provisions of 92 bis.

5 A word or so about the process. The Chamber will be aware to some

6 degree of what happens. The 92 bis process happens in the territory, and

7 the formal acknowledging of accuracy of signature is probably done in the

8 Albanian language.

9 JUDGE MAY: It may be helpful if, since the accused is

10 representing himself, if you briefly introduce the Rule and the procedure

11 so that it may be understood.

12 MR. NICE: Yes. The 92 bis provisions for proof of facts other

13 than by oral evidence, at page 93 of the version of the Rules I have,

14 allows a Chamber to admit "... in whole or part, evidence of a witness in

15 the form of a written statement in lieu of oral testimony which goes to

16 proof of a matter other than the acts and conduct of the accused as

17 charged in the indictment" and sets out a number of factors in favour of

18 admitting the evidence in written form.

19 I should perhaps check whether the accused has been provided with

20 a copy of the Rules. Of course if he hasn't, it would be helpful for him

21 to have one on his bench.

22 JUDGE MAY: He has a had a copy of the Rules. I will check with

23 the registry.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we'll provide you with a copy of the

1 Rules so you can have it during the court proceedings if you want to read

2 it and follow.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [No translation]. Can I say

4 something in response to what the Prosecutor has just said?

5 JUDGE MAY: Let him finish what he's saying now, and then we'll

6 hear you.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Go ahead, please.

8 MR. NICE: The Rules go on to list factors favouring admission of

9 such evidence and factors against it. Rather than list them all, to

10 assist the accused, factors against admission of such evidence include an

11 overriding public interest in evidence being presented orally, an

12 objection by a party demonstrating that the source and nature of the

13 evidence is unreliable or that its prejudicial effect outweighs its

14 probative value or that there are other factors making it appropriate for

15 the proposed 92 bis witness to attend for cross-examination.

16 There are then provisions about declarations that have to be made

17 by the proposed witness, and they've been dealt with on recent missions to

18 the territory, with the assistance of staff of the Registry, as the

19 Chamber may know, and there's a requirement as to what the declaration of

20 the witness has to verify. There are further provisions which needn't

21 concern us, either at all or immediately, about dead witnesses or

22 witnesses who have died. And then it says this, at (E), after dealing

23 with the admission of transcripts of evidence:

24 "Subject to Rule 127 or any order to the contrary, a party seeking

25 to adduce a written statement or transcript shall give fourteen days

1 notice to the opposing party, who may within seven days object. The Trial

2 Chamber shall decide, after hearing the parties, whether to admit the

3 statement or transcript in whole or in part and whether to require the

4 witness to appear for cross-examination."

5 Rule 127 is the Rule, of course, which allows for variation,

6 including abbreviation of time limits.

7 With that brief survey of the Rule and with an eye to the

8 Prosecution's revised amended order of witnesses of the 8th of February,

9 it would be my invitation to the Chamber to ensure by some means that the

10 accused is aware ahead of the calling of the evidence of witnesses 4 and

11 5. Not only that it is our intention to rely on 92 bis witnesses

12 identified thereafter, but possibly to give him some summary or to give

13 him a further opportunity to read statements from those witness,

14 because --

15 JUDGE MAY: We haven't got those statements.

16 MR. NICE: In which case they must be provided to the Chamber, and

17 that can be done, of course, very swiftly.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, it may be more convenient to deal with

19 Mr. Spargo now and then to return to this.

20 MR. NICE: Certainly. I obviously want the -- I would like the

21 matter to be resolved, if we can, before we call the first witness.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course. Mr. Spargo.

23 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour has correctly identified the issues

24 which Mr. Ryneveld and I had spoken of in advance anyway. There was a

25 further matter concerning the video material, which we should mention.

1 That's an exhibit within his evidence. There are five videotapes, and

2 we've both agreed that the news reporting - and one is what appears to be

3 private video footage - is admissible as exhibits within the case, but the

4 sound must be off. So if Your Honours look at these videotapes, the sound

5 must be off, because again, rather like the issue with Mr. Curtis, they

6 are the commentary and opinions of journalists and a selection of

7 journalists. But the actual footage itself can be seen. I think Your

8 Honours will know what I'm talking about, because it was all over the

9 world and no passerby could have missed it. But to ensure the integrity

10 of this trial, both parties have agreed that it would be wrong to have

11 such sound on in looking at the videos.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, what is proposed to be done?

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. If Your Honour is asking only with respect to

14 the videos or his evidence in chief --

15 JUDGE MAY: His evidence generally.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: -- I had proposed that this witness really -- I've

17 prepared a summary, which I hope the Court has had an opportunity to --

18 JUDGE MAY: We haven't seen it.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, my goodness.

20 JUDGE MAY: We've seen the statement. We've had that, but not the

21 summary. If we could have the summary now.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I have prepared a summary, which includes

23 which exhibits we propose to put in at what time. Basically, there are

24 three categories of evidence that we had proposed.

25 The first category is simply: This witness has produced maps,

1 computer-generated maps, based on the information of the statements by the

2 witnesses, to assist the Court that, when the witnesses testify, that they

3 will be able to see the routes taken by these refugees to the various

4 border points. In other words, for each -- you perhaps saw one of those

5 aggregate maps during the course of the opening. It was a colour map with

6 different coloured routes. That was produced by Mr. Spargo. I do not

7 propose, in light of Your Honour's ruling, to have him expound upon the

8 narrative, unfold the narrative of what witnesses told him. But as a

9 result of that, he created these maps.

10 And for each -- if you can see, perhaps, paragraph 3, I've got the

11 overview map and the proposal for each exhibit. It's the aggregate map of

12 the deportation routes. Then as you get -- for each of the deportation

13 sites only, not the killing sites that I referred to, he will produce some

14 maps that he created, including some town maps, and perhaps we have to

15 have a vehicle by which these can be entered into evidence as proper

16 exhibits.

17 When we then get perhaps to paragraph 11, where I talk about

18 Djakovica, you'll note that there is, under proposed Exhibit K560, a

19 one-and-a-half-hour video depicting destruction to houses, and part of

20 which, a very small part of which, was shown during the opening. I

21 propose to simply enter that video without the necessity of playing it.

22 The Court can -- copies have been given to the amici; the accused has a

23 copy. The Court can -- rather than take up valuable court time, the

24 proposal was simply to mark it as an exhibit and the Court can then view

25 it at a time not during court hours. And as I discussed with Mr. Kay, we

1 agree that, as I did during the opening, no sound. Because it's the

2 footage, it's the visual impressions that are important, not a commentary

3 by a journalist or the person taking it. That was the proposal.

4 Then when we get to paragraph 17, you will note that paragraph 17

5 is under the heading of "Additional Evidence." In light of the Court's

6 ruling today, I take the view that everything under paragraph 17 would be

7 along the lines of a conclusion drawn by the witness, along the lines that

8 we had originally proposed - it may be of assistance to the Court - by

9 means of Kevin Curtis. I view paragraph 17 to fall within the Court's

10 order, and I would propose not to adduce any of paragraph 17.

11 Finally, at page 5, under tab -- under number 18, I have listed

12 three potential BBC news tapes with various footage of the things depicted

13 in this note, and again, I propose merely to tender the exhibits into

14 evidence without playing them, in the interests of time. And again, all

15 copies have been disclosed to all parties. And should the Court at some

16 point wish to have a witness recalled after viewing the video, the witness

17 is available for re-examination or cross-examination by any of the parties

18 once they've had an opportunity to do so.

19 This is a discretionary matter as to whether or not the Court

20 wants to admit that evidence, but parts of this evidence were shown in the

21 opening. And that is my proposal for Mr. Spargo. I've had discussions

22 with the amici, and as I understand it, they're agreed that paragraph 17

23 ought not be entered, and they -- and apart from the issue of sound in the

24 videos, I understand there is no objection from the friends of the Court

25 with respect to these issues.

1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Kay, is that right?

2 MR. KAY: Yes. Mr. Ryneveld set out the position that we had

3 advanced.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Milosevic, it's proposed now to call

5 Mr. Spargo. You've heard the discussion about him. Is there anything you

6 want to say about that?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do wish to say something about

8 that and about what the Prosecutor said earlier on, and I consider that to

9 be my right, the right to react.

10 The Prosecutor said here that I was taking part in the

11 proceedings, which is incorrect. I am not taking part in the proceedings,

12 because I do not recognise the Court. But I did state here publicly that

13 I will use every opportunity to address the public, every opportunity, and

14 I have been given only one in the past seven months, to tell the truth.

15 And what I am saying whenever I am given the opportunity of addressing the

16 public, I think is my duty to have the truth be heard, even opportunities

17 afforded me like the one we saw yesterday here.

18 Secondly, written statements by witnesses completely curtail the

19 right of them being questioned. Every witness has to come here and we

20 must be given a chance of asking those witnesses questions if the

21 witnesses have anything to do with the accusations and indictment against

22 me. I have heard that there are 1.300 written statements. I am then

23 going to hand in to you 130.000 written statements, or 1.300.000 written

24 statements of the victims of crimes that were perpetrated by the

25 terrorists and NATO. I don't think you can abuse the proceedings and

1 trial in this way.

2 Thirdly, relating to the issues as to the crime sites, the

3 so-called crime sites, you are duty-bound to clarify, even in an illegal

4 trial of this nature, that you can speak of a crime site only if you have

5 any evidence and proof that I was present at the site of the crime and

6 that I committed those crimes, or if those crimes actually did take place,

7 and I have my doubts in the majority of cases. So you would have to have

8 proof and evidence that I ordered the perpetrators of those crimes to

9 carry them out; otherwise, what sense and meaning to the spots in which

10 people were killed have to do with the accusations held against me, unless

11 you have prior evidence and proof that this has anything whatsoever to do

12 with me?

13 And it has absolutely nothing to do with me, but it does have

14 something to do with the tactics of the Prosecutor, who wishes, here and

15 now, to swamp and inundate the world public with countless examples of the

16 sufferings of people during a war, without coming to the question,

17 discussing the question of how come the war came about and how come the

18 crimes were committed in Yugoslavia. So you can send this to Clinton,

19 evidence of those crimes, and show him the crimes that were committed, to

20 send them to Clinton and not to me. I had nothing to do with crimes and

21 the crime sites, and all you're doing is swamping the international public

22 with alleged facts.

23 I think this is an essential matter of substance, if you have no

24 proof to show that I was on the spot or that I ordered the perpetrators of

25 the crimes, and you have nothing of the kind. I have presented proof and

1 evidence to the contrary in opposition to all this, that crimes were being

2 in fact prevented, that people were being brought to justice, and so on.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is not the time for speeches and

4 submissions except on the narrow issue we're dealing with. As to the

5 relevance of evidence, that's a matter for the Tribunal to rule on, as we

6 will.

7 Very well. Let's call the witness.

8 MR. NICE: I'm not sure where Mr. Spargo is exactly at the

9 moment. I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to seek to put anything in

10 through Mr. Curtis at the moment. I'll tender him in due course if I

11 don't seek to call him for any particular part of his evidence, or

12 possibly if things change, but we'll move straight on to Mr. Spargo. But

13 can we just have a few minutes first to reorganise ourselves?

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Ten minutes?

15 MR. NICE: Yes.

16 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn.

17 --- Break taken at 10.34 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: The Prosecution calls Stephen Spargo.

21 JUDGE MAY: I should say we'll go on now until 11.15 before we

22 take the longer break.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

2 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

4 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

5 WITNESS: STEPHEN SPARGO

6 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

7 Q. Witness, would you state your full name for the record, please.

8 A. My full name is Stephen John Spargo.

9 Q. And I'm going to ask you to keep your voice up, if you would,

10 please. I understand, sir, that you are a police officer and you've been

11 a police officer in Australia since 1977. Is that correct?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. You took up your occupation with the ICTY in what year?

14 A. In June of 2000.

15 Q. And you were assigned to the Kosovo investigation at that time?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. And prior to that, sir, in your capacity as a police officer, did

18 you have any particular training in the capacity as an intelligence

19 analyst?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. And did you, in the course of that training, become familiar with

22 the creation of computerised maps?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. Sir, as part of your overall duties with the ICTY and this

25 investigation, were you tasked at some point with analysing the various

1 statements of individuals from the Kosovo investigation and creating maps

2 with respect to the routes that they allegedly took?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. Can you, in a very brief way to assist the Court, indicate how you

5 went about performing that task so that the Court can understand the end

6 product of what you produced.

7 A. The maps were created using a computerised programme called

8 ArcView, which is a geographical information system. It allowed us to

9 electronically plot lines on an electronic map of Kosovo.

10 Q. And the statements that you analysed, sir, I understand that there

11 are some 1.300 some-odd statements in the archives from this particular

12 file. Which statements did you actually use in order to trace these

13 particular routes onto maps? Were they all 1.300 or a restricted portion

14 of them?

15 A. The maps were compiled from the statements which are to be

16 tendered as live witness or 92 bis before the Court.

17 Q. So these maps are based on the witness statements on the witness

18 list tendered by the Prosecution in this case and none other?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. Before I actually get to those particular maps, sir, I understand

21 that there is a Times Atlas map of the Balkans that is available. That

22 may perhaps show the Court perhaps the layout of the Balkans; is that

23 correct?

24 A. That is correct.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Although it's not on the summary sheet, Your

1 Honours - we had intended to introduce this particular map through another

2 witness - but I thought it may be of assistance to the Court if we tender

3 a Times Atlas map of the Balkans. And we have copies here for the Court

4 and for the various parties.

5 Perhaps you could show it to the witness, Mr. Usher.

6 Until we get this process down, the first few exhibits may take a

7 little bit of time. We'll get the process quickly.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number 1.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: I have the original here to be marked as the Court

10 exhibit unless -- it should be shown to the witness to make sure that ...

11 Is it on the screen?

12 Q. Now, Witness, what has been tendered as Exhibit 1, is that a Times

13 Atlas map of the Balkans?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. And perhaps you could point out to us where is Kosovo on this map

16 and trace it with a pointer, if you have it.

17 A. Kosovo is located here.

18 Q. And you're now tracing Kosovo on the right-hand bottom of the

19 screen that's on the camera. Ah. Thank you. All right.

20 A. Albanian border, Macedonian border, the border with Serbia proper,

21 and the Montenegrin border.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: That is then Exhibit 1 in these proceedings, was

24 formerly K5.

25 Thank you, Mr. Usher.

1 Q. Now, sir, you've told us that you were assigned the task of

2 reviewing these statements, and from those statements, sir, without giving

3 us any conclusions, did you in fact create an overview map of the routes

4 described in those statements by the various witnesses by means of which

5 they left Kosovo?

6 A. That is correct.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the witness be shown what we have marked as

8 K6.

9 Q. On the ELMO at the moment, Witness, is what is presently marked as

10 K6, and it appears to be a multicoloured diagram. First of all, what is

11 that a map of?

12 A. It is a map of the province of Kosovo.

13 Q. Yes. And can you tell us, sir, where -- can you point out perhaps

14 where the borders of Kosovo are again on this reduced map?

15 A. Of course. The Macedonian border is here, the Albanian border is

16 here, the border with Montenegro, the border with Serbia proper.

17 Q. And for the record, you've simply outlined with your pointer,

18 starting at the bottom right-hand frame near Macedonia. You've gone in a

19 clockwise fashion around the borders of Kosovo; is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. All right. Now, sir, how did this map come about? Did you create

22 this or how did this come into being?

23 A. The basic map was created using the commercial software of

24 ArcView. On that, I produced the coloured lines of each of the individual

25 indictment sites for the deportation side of the second amended

1 indictment. Each of the colours on the map represents one particular

2 deportation site.

3 Q. Perhaps, sir, we can just pick a colour and you could let us know

4 for -- let's start at the very top. The green colour. What do those

5 green lines indicate?

6 A. The green lines here are centred on the deportation site of

7 Vushtrri.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. And show the routes taken by the displaced persons at various

10 times and then on their journey to the border crossings.

11 Q. And you're now tracing from what on the map -- you called it

12 Vushtrri. Is Vucitrn another way --

13 A. Vucitrn is the same place.

14 Q. Yes, I see. And it seems to be going to an area marked as

15 Pristina and then down towards what border?

16 A. It goes down through Lipljan, Suva Reka, Prizren, to the border at

17 Qafe e Morina.

18 Q. All right. And let's take another colour. The orange one that

19 seems to have -- around Mitrovica.

20 A. Mitrovica shows the routes of displaced persons from the

21 indictment site at Mitrovica through various routes to the border at Qafe

22 e Morina or to the border with Montenegro at Rozaje.

23 Q. All right. Now, I'm sorry, I skipped ahead. You showed us one of

24 the green routes down to the Albanian border. There also appears to be

25 arrows up towards Serbia to Novi Pazar. What is that -- what does that

1 indicate?

2 A. That route is one witness who travelled from the Vucitrn area

3 through Mitrovica, Leposavic to Novi Pazar.

4 Q. Now, sir, rather than go through each of these colours on this

5 particular map, I understand that you have subsequently generated maps for

6 each of these particular routes in isolation; is that correct?

7 A. That is correct. In fact, the starting point was to create a map

8 for each of the individual sites and then to amalgamate them together in

9 one single map, which is this exhibit.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Rather than go through all of the colours on this

11 particular map, perhaps we could have that now marked as Exhibit 2 in

12 these proceedings. So K6 becomes Exhibit 2; is that correct, Madam

13 Clerk?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 2.

15 MR. RYNEVELD:

16 Q. Witness, just to ensure that the interpreters have an opportunity

17 to interpret my question before you commence your answer, would you please

18 pause. I know it's difficult when we both speak the same language, but

19 there is a pause that needs to be observed for translation.

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. Thank you. Sir, did you create a map for the Orahovac area?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. And I understand, sir, that you have produced some 13 maps under

24 collective number K7 for the various deportation sites; is that correct?

25 A. That is correct.

1 Q. Do you have part of K7 available? I think we have it here.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps during the break, Your Honours, we'll find

3 a more efficient route by which these can be distributed in advance so

4 that we don't have to wait.

5 Q. Very briefly, sir, could you -- I should wait for it to go on the

6 ELMO. For the record, we now have a green colour near the word

7 "Orahovac," is that correct?

8 A. That is correct. That is to define the deportation site, or the

9 municipality in which the deportation took place.

10 Q. There are a number of communities listed immediately below the

11 word "Orahovac," which is in large letters on the top right-hand corner of

12 the map. What do they signify?

13 A. The names are the villages within that area, some of which were

14 places where persons were deported from; others are mentioned as landmarks

15 in the statements.

16 Q. All right. And just to be very brief about this, you created this

17 map to reflect what the Court will hear in the statements. As witnesses

18 refer to various towns and places and routes they took, these would then

19 be traced in the green arrows on this particular map. And I believe

20 you've already explained this to us: In the aggregate map, this is how

21 they took the route to the Albanian border; is that correct?

22 A. That is correct.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Exhibit 3, please, Your Honours, part of K7. Since

24 I'm following the summary that the Court has, perhaps I could also now ask

25 for Exhibit K8.

1 Q. I understand, sir, that there is a collection of maps, which we

2 have marked tentatively as K8, depicting each municipality as well; is

3 that correct?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. And with respect to this particular community, you've prepared

6 another -- this is a map that you would have prepared on computer?

7 A. These were maps which we obtained from a United Nations body in

8 Kosovo who were responsible for producing maps for the area.

9 Q. Did you personally do anything to the map or add anything to it or

10 make any markings on it or modify it in any way?

11 A. Some of the maps have annotations on them which are relevant to

12 various incidents.

13 Q. Still dealing with the Orahovac municipality, sir, would you look

14 at the ELMO and -- we'll get it on there. There we are. And this is a

15 map that was then provided to you. Did you make any modifications to this

16 particular map?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And the legend indicates the village boundaries, the railways,

19 what would be the urban area. That would be in sort of the orange colour;

20 is that correct?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. And the municipality boundaries and roads are also shown on this

23 map?

24 A. That is correct. The thick grey line is the municipality

25 boundary.

1 Q. And this map also includes the names of little villages and

2 hamlets within that municipality?

3 A. It does.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: I've lost the number. Are we at 4 now?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor Exhibit 4.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Have copies been distributed?

8 Q. Moving on, then, sir, to the Prizren municipality. First of all,

9 again, the same process was adopted? And I'm not going to do this for

10 each municipality, but again, you analysed the statements, you attempted

11 to draw routes on a map depicting what those statements reflected; is that

12 correct?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. So if I can then turn to Prizren, part of K7. Is that on the

15 ELMO? So it is. Very briefly, rather than have me do the talking, can

16 you explain what the maps shows.

17 A. The map shows the routes taken by persons from the villages of

18 Pirane, Landovica, and several areas within Prizren itself, and the routes

19 taken to the border with Albania.

20 Q. And that line where the pink line arrow stops at the bottom

21 left-hand corner, near a body, what is that purple-blue mark? What is

22 that?

23 A. That area is a body of water.

24 Q. All right. So that particular area, is that the Albanian border?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Exhibit 5, please, Your Honour.

3 Q. Still dealing with Prizren, part of the bundle that we referred to

4 as K8 --

5 JUDGE KWON: Just a minute. You said Exhibit 5? Number 3?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this map was submitted together with

7 the other maps under Exhibit 3.

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: My proposal -- well, it's up to the Court. If the

10 Court wants to make it a bundle, as it was before, fine, unless we want to

11 give them individual numbers.

12 JUDGE MAY: I think it would be more convenient to keep them

13 together, refer to it as Exhibit 2 or 3 and Map 1, 2, 3, and 4.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Fine. Excellent. Thank you. We'll do it that

15 way. I'll let the clerk call the numbers, then, because ... So the map

16 I've just introduced, that is, the map of Prizren that used to be part of

17 K7, is now map what? 2 of Exhibit 3?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 3, map 2.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I'm waiting for translation.

20 Q. Moving, then, to the bundle K -- I guess now Exhibit 4, used to be

21 K8 --

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Is that map on the ELMO? Not yet.

23 THE REGISTRAR: This is map 3 of Exhibit 3.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

25 Q. And again, Witness, what is this map?

1 A. This map shows the municipality of Prizren.

2 Q. And is this the map that you received from another UN

3 organisation?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. Did you make any modifications?

6 A. On this map, no.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe the clerk has indicated what map this

9 is.

10 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me. Just for the clarification. That map is

11 part of the Exhibit 4, not number 3?

12 MR. RYNEVELD: That was my understanding as well, yes, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE KWON: It was K --

15 MR. RYNEVELD: K8. It was part of K8 at one time, which I

16 understood became Exhibit 4.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. 0214196. Yes.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Staying still with the municipality of Prizren, and

19 tab 24, if Your Honours have tab materials, under what was formerly K24,

20 it's the town map of Prizren. I'm sorry. It was tab 11.

21 It looks like this, Mr. ...

22 Q. Witness, you have on the ELMO what I understand is a town map of

23 Prizren. How was this created and by whom?

24 A. This was created by the same body that made the municipality

25 maps.

1 Q. And what does this map depict? I mean, by its name we know it's a

2 town map, but there are arrows on it. How did they get there?

3 A. The arrows were placed on the map to show particular routes around

4 and through the town of Prizren.

5 Q. And you're now referring to the green arrows and you're tracing --

6 for the record, you're tracing with your pointer from the top left corner

7 of the map down to the -- down the side, and now the right side across to

8 the left; is that correct?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. All right. And those are routes within the town of Prizren that

11 are contained in witness statements --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- in this case? Thank you.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number 5.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. May we move on to the village of -- or

16 the municipality of Srbica. This is again part of K7, followed by a map

17 from K8.

18 Q. Just so that I'm clear, sir, this is one of the yellow routes that

19 is depicted as well on that aggregate map you earlier introduced; is that

20 correct?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. All right. And what does this depict?

23 A. It depicts the routes taken by displaced persons from the vicinity

24 of Izbica to the Albanian border at Qafe e Prushit and to the Albanian

25 border at Qafe e Morina.

1 Q. And there are a number of villages marked on the map as well, the

2 smaller villages around Izbica; is that correct?

3 A. That is correct.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Madam Clerk, do we have a number for that?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Map --

6 JUDGE MAY: Map 4, yes.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Map 4 of Exhibit 3. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, we'll adjourn now. I think at some time

9 we're going to have put these maps in a binder or the like with tab

10 numbers. Otherwise, it's going to be a recipe for confusion.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: I have that, but I understood that there was --

12 we'll certainly provide the Court with new binders. Thank you.

13 JUDGE MAY: But we'll go on with the evidence meanwhile.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

15 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now for half an hour.

16 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.45 a.m.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. Just to respond to Your Honour's

20 comment as we broke for the break, I might say that we had originally

21 provided bundles in tabs to all the parties, including to the amici, and a

22 copy was served on the accused. We also, I believe, intended to have

23 these bundles for the Court but that process was arrested when we

24 understood that the Court wanted to have these matters dealt with document

25 by document. So they were deconstructed. We're now in the process of

1 reconstructing them, and they will be given to the Court in the bundle

2 form. We had them that way. But our apologies. Perhaps we

3 misunderstood. So I apologise for the inconvenience for the Court getting

4 these piecemeal.

5 JUDGE MAY: There's obviously been some confusion and

6 misunderstanding.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. And as I say, my friends

8 and the accused do have them in tabbed bundles.

9 Now, I believe if I can turn -- I believe I just finished tab --

10 or point 6 on the summary, and I'm about to go to the Suva Reka

11 municipality, number 7 on our summary. And I hope to move at a slightly

12 faster pace now that we have the process somewhat down.

13 That would be map number 5 of the -- I'm going to ask the witness

14 to now look at map number 5. That used to be K7.

15 Is that on the ELMO? Yes. Thank you.

16 Q. Now, sir, very briefly, what is this?

17 A. This is a map showing the deportation routes from a number of

18 centres in the Suva Reka municipality. From Belanica in two directions.

19 From Suva Reka and from the village of Lesane.

20 Q. And do all of these routes go through Prizren? Am I looking at

21 that correct? In other words, there are two sort of routes forming kind

22 of a circle, joining at Prizren and then going on to the border with

23 Albania?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. I see. Thank you.

1 MR. RYNEVELD: That was -- I guess that will be map 5, part of

2 Exhibit 3, then. Is that right, Madam Clerk, if I have that correct?

3 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

5 Q. Staying with that municipality and going to what used to be K8,

6 would you please look at the map that's -- it's Suva Reka municipality.

7 And just very briefly, again we have a legend on the top right-hand

8 corner, indicating roads and railways and boundaries, et cetera.

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. And did you make any modifications to this map or is this a map

11 that you received as part of the investigative bundle?

12 A. There were no modifications made to this map.

13 Q. And just so that we know what we're talking about, what does this

14 map represent? What is the purpose of this map?

15 A. It is a map of the municipality of Suva Reka, showing all of the

16 villages.

17 Q. Again, we get the fine detail of little hamlets, et cetera,

18 et cetera, that might be referred to by witnesses; is that correct?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. I see.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Madam Clerk.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 4, map 3.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

24 Q. Still staying with that municipality, in tab 12 of the binder that

25 we had hoped to provide to the Court, but it was K46, is a town map of

1 Suva Reka. Do you have that? Here it is.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 6.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: That's on the ELMO. Now, there are two -- this is

4 a town map of Suva Reka, and did you -- this is prepared by computers in

5 the office of the ICTY; is that correct?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. And very briefly, sir, what is depicted in this map?

8 A. Apart from the municipal area of the town of Suva Reka, there are

9 two additional points marked. Point 1 is marked as the Berisha

10 household. Point number 2 is marked as a cafe.

11 Q. All right. And those red lines, sir, those, I take it, are major

12 roads, are they, the red lines from starting at the top of the photograph

13 working down to the bottom and then the one that sort of forms a triangle

14 near points 1 and 2?

15 A. That is correct. That is the main road between Prizren and

16 Stimlje, and this is a main road which takes you to -- I think it's

17 Studencani.

18 Q. And at the very bottom of that map, we see that the road leads

19 to -- there's a town called Prizren located at the bottom; is that

20 correct? That's the road to Prizren?

21 A. That is correct.

22 I see. Thank you.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: I think it's already been marked as Exhibit 6.

24 Q. Moving on, if I may, then, sir, to the Pec municipality, or Peje,

25 map 6 of Exhibit 3, please. Do you have that on the -- okay. That's on

1 the ELMO. Can you again, sir, very briefly describe what this

2 represents.

3 A. It represents the routes taken by displaced persons from the city

4 of Pec through Decani, Djakovica, Prizren, to the border of Qafe e Morina.

5 Q. That's near the bottom of the map.

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. There also appear to be arrows leading upwards from Peje, or Pec,

8 toward Montenegro. What is that?

9 A. The arrow on the bottom shows a route from Pec to Rozaje on the

10 main road. The second arrow shows an alternate route through the

11 mountains.

12 Q. All right. Thank you.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: That was -- formerly K7 is now map 6 of Exhibit 3.

14 Thank you.

15 Q. Part of K8, sir, you have a -- and that is for the Pec

16 municipality, or Peje municipality. Just so that we're clear, Pec and

17 Peje, those are just -- one is a Serbian way of expressing the name of the

18 municipality, and Peje is the Albanian way of expressing the municipality;

19 is that correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. I see. So although on the map it says "Peje" and on your map it

22 says "Pec," we're talking about the same municipality?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And again, this was one of those maps that was provided, showing

25 all the little villages in the Peje or Pec municipality; is that correct?

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. The exhibit now on the ELMO. Right.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. This is where I lose -- this is part of

4 Exhibit 4, I believe it is, Madam --

5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 4, map 4.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

7 Q. And might I also ask you to look at Exhibit K55, or what we called

8 K55, about to become an exhibit. That would be at tab 13 of the material

9 that was provided.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 7.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

12 Q. Again, Witness, very briefly: I take it this is pretty

13 self-explanatory. It's a town map of Pec, or Peje. Are the red

14 lines -- perhaps you could tell us: The red lines, are those roadways?

15 A. That's correct. The red lines are the major roads --

16 Q. And how about --

17 A. -- through the city.

18 Q. -- the little cross-stitches, the black little hash marks? What

19 are those?

20 A. Those marks there are the railway line.

21 Q. I see. And at bottom of this map - and I'm looking at it in a

22 rectangle -- a horizontal, rectangle form - it says, "to Decani and

23 Djakovica." That's the road to Decani and Djakovica; and to the

24 north -- I'm sorry. To the top of the map, it's to Mitrovica; is that

25 correct?

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1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And to the left, as I'm looking at the map, to Montenegro.

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. And to the right, to Klina and Pristina.

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. All right. Were there any other markings that you placed on this

7 map that you want to point to the Court's attention?

8 A. No, there are not.

9 Q. Thank you. Let's move on, if we may, then. I'm now going to

10 turn, if I may, to map 7, which is the Kosovska Mitrovica site. And first

11 of all, part of K7 is now map 7. That's on the ELMO. Again, very

12 briefly, sir, what does this tell us?

13 A. It depicts the routes taken by displaced persons from the city of

14 Kosovska Mitrovica, through Klina, Djakovica, Peje, Istok, to border

15 crossings at Qafe e Morina and at Rozaje with Montenegro.

16 Q. So again, sir, just so that I'm clear, the yellow markings on this

17 map show us two major border exit points; is that correct? Is that what

18 this shows, or am I wrong in interpreting this?

19 A. No. That is correct.

20 Q. One with the border of Albania, at the bottom of the map, and one

21 at the border of Montenegro, near the top of the map; is that it?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And the yellow lines are the various routes that people took to

24 get there?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. Many of them going through Prizren in order to get to Albania?

2 A. That's correct.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: That was map 7, part of Exhibit 3, Madam Clerk?

4 Thank you.

5 Q. Turning then, if I may, to what was formerly part of bundle K8 for

6 that municipality, Mitrovica. I see that on the ELMO at this point. Tell

7 us about that, if you would, please, sir.

8 A. This is a map of the municipality of Mitrovica, with the major

9 population centre towards the left-hand side of the map and with an

10 annotation on the map with a green star.

11 Q. What does that mean?

12 A. Showing a transit location.

13 Q. And is there a particular name associated with what you've got as

14 the green star? In other words, do witnesses refer to it as "transit

15 location" or do they call it a -- by the name of a place or what?

16 A. They call it by the name of the village, which is Zabare.

17 Q. I see, Zabare Pristina and Donje Zabare?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that's just -- now, is there a convergence there of roads or

20 is that a -- that red line, that road goes through that green star, is

21 that a main road or what?

22 A. It is.

23 Q. And again, the hash marks running from top of the map to the

24 bottom, is that a railroad?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And again, it shows the names of the various small little hamlets

2 and villages that make up the municipality of Mitrovica?

3 A. It does.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 4, map 5.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. K62 of Mitrovica. At tab 14 for my

7 colleagues.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number 8.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you very much.

10 Q. As soon as it's on the ELMO, Witness, you can describe what this

11 is and any significant markings that would be of assistance to the Court.

12 A. This is a town map of Mitrovica. The blue line denotes water

13 courses. The red lines are the major roads through the city. And the

14 course of the railway line.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness. If I may then turn to the Pristina

16 municipality, map 8, part of what we used to call K7. It is now Exhibit

17 3, map 8.

18 You created this map, and I take it the routes are in red. Is

19 that correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. And which major -- or is there more than one direction to a border

22 shown on this or only one direction?

23 A. There are two directions shown.

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. One shows the major highway and railway line from Pristina and

1 Kosovo Polje to the Macedonian border crossing at Djeneral Jankovic.

2 Q. That's on the bottom right side of the map?

3 A. That's correct. The second route is via Stimlje, Suva Reka,

4 Prizren to the Albanian border at Qafe e Morina.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. Still on that municipality, if we can turn to the

6 bundle K8. Do you have that?

7 A. Yes. This map shows the municipality of Pristina with the city of

8 Pristina towards the left-hand side, and just off the map is the town of

9 Kosovo Polje.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: It's on the left-hand side of the map, just for the

11 record.

12 Q. And Pristina, that is a major city, I take it, in Kosovo?

13 A. Pristina is the principal city in Kosovo.

14 Q. And there's a confluence there of roads and railways, et cetera?

15 A. That is correct. The railway is shown.

16 Q. And again, all the small hamlets are listed, or many of the small

17 hamlets are listed by name on this map?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Madam Clerk.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 4, map 6.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

23 Q. K62. I would ask that you look at the town map of Mitrovica,

24 which is found at tab 14. K69, town map of Pristina. I'm sorry, did I

25 say Mitrovica? That was my mistake. Tab 15. This is a slightly larger

1 map, taken because it's a larger city.

2 A. Correct.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 9.

4 MR. RYNEVELD:

5 Q. Now, sir, there is a legend on this, showing ten points by name

6 and number; is that correct? And I'm not going to ask you to go through

7 those. Those are depicted on this map?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. And otherwise, it's a town map, showing roads and railways, et

10 cetera, and just gives the Court reference points to receive the evidence

11 from the witnesses; is that correct?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: I'll just move on, if I may. Unless the Court

15 wishes any clarification, I'll just enter it as an exhibit and move on.

16 You've given it a number, Madam Clerk? I've failed to record it.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 9.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

19 Q. Turning, then, to the municipality of Djakovica, map -- I think

20 it's map 9 of Exhibit 3, which was formerly K7.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You have it on the ELMO. There's blue lines. What does this

23 show?

24 A. This shows routes taken by persons from the city of Djakovica

25 through Prizren to Qafe e Morina, routes taken by displaced persons from

1 the city of Djakovica to Qafe e Prushit.

2 Q. And that's also another location on the Albanian border?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. Does it also show routes of individuals as to how they got to

5 Djakovica before they went on to those two Albanian border crossings?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. And those would be the villages to the left, on the map, of

8 Djakovica; is that right?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Map 9 of Exhibit 3, please. Turning to K8, if I may. That would

11 be -- that's of the Djakovica or Gjakova municipality. Again, that would

12 depend on whether we're talking -- speaking Serbian or Albania; is that

13 correct?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. And again this shows that particular municipality and the main

16 city in it?

17 A. It does.

18 Q. And the various villages and hamlets in that vicinity. Is there

19 also a confluence there of roads? In other words, those black marks and

20 red marks, what are they?

21 A. There is the main road from Pec or Peje through Decani, Djakovica,

22 and then on to Prizren. There are also the number of other roads which

23 lead from Klina and other locations into the city and from the outlying

24 areas, other villages in Djakovica municipality, into the city.

25 Q. Thank you, sir. If I could -- I'm sorry.

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Madam Clerk.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 4, map 7.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Moving along.

4 Q. Moving along, what was formerly K79, Tab 16, the town map of

5 Djakovica.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number 10.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

8 Q. Now, that's on the ELMO, sir. Again, that's a town map of

9 Djakovica?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. With the roads shown and also the site of the MUP building on the

12 right-hand side of the map, near -- two-thirds of the way down; is that

13 correct?

14 A. That's correct. And the VJ barracks.

15 Q. I'm sorry, where are they located?

16 A. Here.

17 Q. You're pointing now to about a third of the way down in the centre

18 of the -- of the map?

19 A. That's correct. And also in the bottom left-hand corner.

20 Q. More VJ barracks at the bottom left-hand corner?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Anything else that would be of assistance to the Court to have

23 noted at this point, sir?

24 A. The river crossing here and the Tabak bridge.

25 Q. All right. And there's an arrow on the bottom corner, pointing

1 to -- is it Prushit, Qafe e Prushit?

2 A. Yes. That's the route to Qafe e Prushit.

3 Q. Prushit. And what is that? Is that an Albanian border town?

4 A. That's one of the Albania border crossings. The main road here

5 goes to Prizren.

6 Q. And by "here," just for the record, you're pointing to the red

7 line leading to the right of the map, off the map?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Past the MUP site.

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. And to follow that line to the top left-hand corner of the map is

13 the road which takes you to Decani and Peje.

14 Q. All right. Thank you very much. And I think that's already been

15 assigned a number by Madam Clerk.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Now, Your Honours, the next exhibit, which I don't

17 propose to show to the witness, is one that was known as K560.

18 Q. Witness, I understand that you are aware that this is a videotape

19 of approximately an hour and a half long. Do you know what's on this

20 videotape? Can you tell us what it relates to?

21 A. The footage on that videotape shows damage to a number of

22 residential premises in Djakovica. It shows damage to a large part of the

23 marketplace in the Hudum [phoen] area of Djakovica.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. It further shows, towards the end, shots in the cemetery at

1 Djakovica, concluding with footage of graffiti painted on walls.

2 Q. Has part of that video been shown during a portion of my opening?

3 A. That's correct.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, copies of this video have been

5 disclosed both to the accused and to the amici, and we propose, unless the

6 Court orders otherwise, that that be marked as an exhibit at this point,

7 without the necessity of playing it at this point.

8 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let it be marked.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 11.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may move to the next municipality, sir,

12 Gnjilane. Part of K7 is the map. Again, red lines -- I guess these are

13 all different colour reds, are they? They just don't --

14 A. That's correct. They don't print differently, and certainly on

15 the ELMO they tend to look similar.

16 Q. I see. But in the aggregate, you can make the distinction between

17 the various routes, or the nuances in colour shades?

18 A. Yes, you can.

19 Q. I see. All right. Now, this is a little bit more complicated.

20 Perhaps you can tell us what these lines show.

21 A. These lines depict routes taken by displaced persons from various

22 sites in the Gnjilane municipality, travelling both west, or to the left,

23 to Urosevac, to the border at Djeneral Jankovic.

24 Q. It's the border of Macedonia, is it?

25 A. That's correct. To a secondary border crossing at Globocica, with

1 Macedonia. They also depict routes travelling to the right, or east, into

2 the Presevo valley, and then south to the Macedonian border.

3 Additionally, they show routes taken through the mountainous areas, into

4 Macedonia.

5 Q. All right, sir. Part of K8 was the municipality map. Again the

6 legend, again the names of the villages, and again showing the roads

7 converging in Gnjilane; is that correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that be marked.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 4, map 8.

12 MR. RYNEVELD:

13 Q. Turning now to paragraph 13, Urosevac. Referring now to part of

14 K7. And perhaps you could simply describe what this map depicts.

15 A. This map depicts routes taken from a number of villages and from

16 the town of Urosevac. The villages centre on Urosevac and then south to

17 the border crossing with Macedonia at Djeneral Jankovic.

18 Q. And I see that there's a railroad line going from Urosevac to

19 Djeneral Jankovic; is that correct?

20 A. That is correct. The main highway between Skopje in Macedonia and

21 Pristina runs through the town of Urosevac and both the railway and the

22 road feature.

23 Q. And the villages are to the east of Urosevac, going to Urosevac,

24 and then straight, in sort of a southerly direction, to the bottom of the

25 map, to Djeneral Jankovic; is that correct?

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: That was map -- sorry. Map 11, I believe, Madam

4 Clerk. And the town map of Urosevac, please, formerly tab 17. There's no

5 K8 for this site.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 12.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

8 Q. Once it's on the ELMO, just tell us what it is, please, and point

9 out any sites that may be of assistance to the Court to accept the

10 witnesses' evidence at a later time.

11 A. It is a town map of Ferizaj, or Urosevac. It shows the main

12 highway, with Lipljan and Pristina at the top, Kacanik and the border

13 crossing at Djeneral Jankovic on the right-hand side. It shows the

14 railway line travelling through the town, with an indication as to the

15 location of the railway station.

16 Q. Thank you. Moving, then, if I may, to the municipality of

17 Kacanik, I only have one map to show you in this matter, and that would be

18 formerly part of K7, map 12. That's now on the ELMO. There's a number of

19 sort of purple-blue lines here that look like they're going to need some

20 description.

21 A. These are routes taken by displaced persons through the border

22 crossing at Globocica, Djeneral Jankovic --

23 Q. And Globocica, just for the record, that is a border crossing with

24 what country or state or province?

25 A. With Macedonia.

1 Q. Macedonia. Thank you.

2 A. It also shows routes taken across the mountainous area to the east

3 of Djeneral Jankovic, and it also describes the routes taken by persons

4 who remained displaced within this area.

5 Q. And just so that I'm clear again: Djeneral Jankovic, that's also

6 Macedonia?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Thank you. Moving, then, if I may, to Decani, two maps here, part

9 of K7 and part of K8. First of all, let's go to map 13 of what was

10 formerly K7, now Exhibit 3. So it's map 13. You have that on there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what does this show?

13 A. This shows the routes from a number of centres around Decani and

14 then the path taken by the displaced persons through Djakovica, Prizren,

15 to the border at Qafe e Morina.

16 Q. And again, that's on the border with Albania; is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And this is through Decani, through Djakovica, Prizren, and then

19 to the border?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. Thank you. K8 of that municipality, of that -- is there anything

22 of particular significance you feel you should address the Court's

23 attention to at this point on this map?

24 A. The municipal area of Decani is in the centre. Above that on the

25 page is the municipal area of Pec, or Peje. On the bottom right-hand

1 corner of this map is the municipal area of Djakovica.

2 Q. And that's the community we just saw in the previous map?

3 A. Correct. It shows the -- many of the smaller hamlets and

4 villages.

5 Q. Yes. Thank you. Finally, Vucitrn.

6 JUDGE MAY: Number for that.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 4, map 9.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Map 14 of what I propose is Exhibit 3, this is the Vucitrn map.

10 Do you have that on there? And this is in green.

11 A. It is.

12 Q. What does that show?

13 A. It shows the movement of displaced persons from the town of

14 Vucitrn and a number of villages into an area to the east or to the

15 north-east of the city, and then various routes, one of which goes through

16 Pristina, Lipljan, Stimlje, Suva Reka, Prizren, to the border at Qafe e

17 Morina.

18 Q. And there appear to be arrows going to the north as well. What is

19 that?

20 A. That is correct. It's a route which was taken from Vushtrri,

21 through Mitrovica, Leposavic to the town of Novi Pazar in Serbia.

22 Q. When you say Vushtrri, that's Vucitrn?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. And part of K8 for that municipality, there's a map.

25 What can you tell us about that?

1 A. It shows the municipality of Vushtrri, or Vucitrn, with the town

2 being shown in the centre. To the top right -- sorry, to the top left is

3 the city of Mitrovica. The main road between Mitrovica and Pristina is

4 shown, along with the railway line between Mitrovica and Kosovo Polje.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Number, Madam Clerk?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 4, map 10.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. And Your Honours, again, a video, what

8 was formerly marked as K131.

9 Q. You're familiar with that videotape, are you, Mr. Spargo?

10 A. Yes, I am.

11 Q. And very briefly, can you tell the Court what is contained on that

12 particular video?

13 A. That videotape shows footage of a large number of displaced

14 persons moving through the villages in the Studime e Eperme area. It then

15 shows a number of deceased persons and other incidents.

16 Q. And just so that the Court is clear, the source -- in other words,

17 this is not taken by journalists or -- or do you know who the source of

18 this video would be, most of the footage?

19 A. The footage on this was taken by one of the local inhabitants.

20 Q. So it's taken by a local inhabitant of Kosovo, sort of like a home

21 video that was then turned over to the ICTY?

22 A. Correct.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: I see. Again, Your Honours, we propose to enter

24 that as an exhibit without playing it. Again, all copies have been

25 disclosed to all parties, including the accused. Again, Mr. Kay and I

1 have indicated that we're not relying on any sound. I don't think that

2 one comes with sound, but we're not asking that any sound on any of these

3 videotapes be part of the evidence, simply the video images.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Number, please.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 13.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Now, in the summary, Your Honours, I

7 want to skip all of paragraph 17 and take us to the very last paragraph,

8 18, which talks about the proposed entry of three videos, videos marked in

9 our exhibit list as K1, K2, and K3. Again, the proposal is that these be

10 tendered much as I have the last two videos, and perhaps if we can deal

11 with the first video, K1, Mr. Spargo can tell the Court briefly what it

12 contains.

13 A. Video number K1 is a BBC compilation video of various news

14 broadcasts. It shows displaced persons crossing the border at various

15 times early in the conflict.

16 Q. When you say "at times early in the conflict," do I understand

17 that is between the 26th of March and the 30th of March, 1999?

18 A. That's correct.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: If there is no objection, might that be marked as

20 an exhibit?

21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number 14.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

23 Q. Video referred to on our exhibit list as K2, sir. You're familiar

24 with the footage on that video?

25 A. I am.

1 Q. Can you give us a very brief description of what we can expect to

2 find on that? First of all, is it a BBC news tape?

3 A. All these three exhibits are press footage from the BBC via

4 stories that were broadcast on the news service. This exhibit further

5 shows displaced persons arriving at border crossings. Included in this is

6 footage of persons walking along a railway line. There is footage also of

7 persons on railway trains. There is additional footage of displaced

8 persons in the camps in Macedonia and Albania.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Unless there's any objection, I think we're up to

11 15, Madam -- 15, Madam Clerk?

12 THE REGISTRAR: This was marked Prosecution Exhibit 15.

13 MR. RYNEVELD:

14 Q. And finally, Witness, the third videotape, K3 formerly in our

15 exhibit list. What, if anything, does that depict, to your knowledge?

16 A. This again is a compilation of news broadcasts. It shows the city

17 of Pristina. It shows displaced persons crossing the border and at

18 refugee points. It shows one of the few pieces of footage taken inside

19 Kosovo during the displacement of the Kosovo Albanians. It continues with

20 additional footage of the arrival of KFOR in the city of Prizren.

21 Q. Is there anything on that video about damage sustained by NATO

22 airstrikes?

23 A. The opening segment is a news broadcast taken in Pristina, showing

24 damage to the post office building and other areas.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Unless there's any objection, that would then

1 become Exhibit 16, I believe.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 16.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: And those are all the questions I propose to ask of

4 this witness at this time, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MAY: We shall have to see these videos in due course and

6 view them out of court.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

8 JUDGE MAY: It might be helpful to know how long they are,

9 roughly.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, yes. Perhaps the witness can be of

11 assistance with that. I've indicated that the first video, I believe, was

12 an hour and a half, and I failed to note the amount of time on K1, 2, or

13 3.

14 JUDGE MAY: Is it recorded on the video itself?

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. There is, actually, Your Honours -- we can

16 supply a precis in the binders, I believe, under tabs 1 -- tabs 2, 3 and

17 4, which I have here. Tab 2, for example, tells us exactly what is in

18 there and gives us counter readings but not -- I can't find on this

19 document under tab 2 the length of the video, just counter readings and

20 then a very brief description of what it contains.

21 JUDGE MAY: Where would we find that?

22 MR. KAY: Shall I help the Court, as I viewed them last night?

23 It's three hours 20 minutes, about --

24 MR. RYNEVELD: For all three aggregate.

25 MR. KAY: Yes, for all the videos.

1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: We can -- we do have these references with counter

3 reading numbers, unless my learned friend objects that those be supplied

4 to the Court so they could find the relevant passages.

5 JUDGE MAY: That might be of assistance.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Here is a reference for K1. Should I

7 provide copies to the Court and to my learned friends after the break?

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, during the adjournment.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: During the adjournment. Thank you very much.

10 Those are all my questions of Mr. Spargo. Perhaps my learned

11 friends.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, have you any questions of this

13 witness?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] You explained at the beginning that the routes

17 that you drew in refer to individual people, the people that you

18 questioned. Is that correct?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. How -- according to -- in your assessment, in your assessment, how

21 many Albanian refugees passed out through those routes, left through those

22 routes?

23 A. Based on the figures that were provided by the UNHCR, the greater

24 percentage of persons displaced travelled through the border crossings at

25 Rozaje into Montenegro, into Albania at Qafe e Prushit and Qafe e Morina,

1 and the Macedonian border crossings at Globocica and Djeneral Jankovic.

2 Q. How many would you say? What number?

3 A. The number is documented by the UNHCR and numbers some 800.000.

4 Q. Eight hundred thousand, you say. You said that this occurred in

5 the period from after the 26th of March onwards, from the 26th of March

6 onwards. Is that correct? Is that what you said?

7 A. The deportation or the movement of people commenced in large

8 numbers as of the 24th of March.

9 Q. They began on the 26th of March. How long did they go on for,

10 these movements of people?

11 A. Until a day or two before the entry of NATO under the Military

12 Technical Agreement.

13 Q. That means that all this movement was between the 26th of March

14 and the end of the bombing; is that correct? You situate it between

15 those -- in that period?

16 A. They are the limits, yes.

17 Q. Therefore, we have taken note of the fact that all the refugees

18 fled during the bombing. Do you know --

19 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. This witness has purely produced a

20 plan. That is all he's done, brought a series of maps. He cannot answer

21 any questions as how -- to how the refugees came to move or anything of

22 that sort. As I understand it, that's the issue that we're going to have

23 to decide.

24 Now, all he's done is produce a map, having read a series of

25 statements. So can you confine your questions to those matters.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you please, the witness himself

2 quoted dates, and the witness himself stated dates a moment ago.

3 Let me move on to my next question. As he followed the movement

4 of refugees, as he has testified here, from the area of Kosovo and

5 Metohija, my question is:

6 Q. Did you see how many Serb refugees left Kosovo at that time?

7 A. That wasn't within the mandate of the inquiry I was conducting.

8 Q. Do you happen to know the UNHCR figures? You mentioned another

9 figure by the UNHCR and that was that 100.000 Serbs left Kosovo during

10 that same period. Are you aware of that fact? Yes or no, please.

11 A. What is this based on?

12 Q. On facts and figures put out by the relevant organs, those who

13 followed refugees and information about refugees and their movements.

14 Now, I'm asking you whether you are aware of that fact, of that figure.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Spargo, if you don't know, just say you don't

16 know. No doubt we'll hear some other evidence about it, rather than

17 having an argument with the witness -- or with the accused, rather. You

18 don't know?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of the figures.

20 JUDGE MAY: No. Thank you.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you know the following, the number of Serb and Albanian -- how

23 many Serb and Albanian inhabitants there are in Kosovo? What is the

24 figure?

25 A. That was always imprecise, following the boycott of the Kosovo

1 Albanians in the 1991 census. I'm not aware of the exact breakdown or

2 total numbers of the population.

3 Q. Do you know, at least roughly, the proportion between the Albanian

4 and Serb population, the ratio, approximately?

5 A. My understanding was that the estimate was that the Kosovo

6 Albanians consisted of around 90 per cent of the population, with the

7 remainder being made up of both Serbian and other ethnic groups.

8 JUDGE MAY: Are we going to hear a witness, Mr. Ryneveld, who is

9 going to deal with population? This witness hasn't so far.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Yes, Your Honour. We do intend to call

11 reports and witnesses to deal with precisely that issue. Dr. Patrick

12 Ball's report and Ms. Blayo, these are demographers who will be calling

13 evidence of that nature. That's not within the ambit of this witness's

14 evidence, nor had I intended to lead that in chief, and I understand that

15 cross-examination is normally limited to the led area in chief. However,

16 if the witness is able to answer, I'm not objecting.

17 JUDGE MAY: You may not be, but it's a question of time.

18 Mr. Milosevic, you can ask questions about the population to the

19 witnesses who are going to deal with it, who are experts in the field and

20 who will give evidence about it.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I know the answers to those

22 questions. I just relied, in posing my questions, on the statement made

23 by the witness, who said here a moment ago that it was not his job to

24 ascertain how many Serb refugees left Kosovo. So that is why I wanted to

25 hear from him whether he knew the proportion, the ratio, the population

1 ratio. And if he says that 800.000 people left and, according to official

2 facts and figures, 100.000 Serb refugees left, then proportionately more

3 Serbs left Kosovo because of the bombing than was the case with the

4 Albanians.

5 JUDGE MAY: We will hear -- Mr. Milosevic, we'll hear argument

6 about it. We'll hear it all in due course. Now, can we move on to the

7 next point relevant to this witness?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And that's all I'm doing. I'm

9 dealing with points relevant to the testimony of this witness and nothing

10 more than that. This testimony -- by this testimony, undoubtedly the

11 Prosecution, when speaking of the movement of refugees and only the

12 movement of one ethnic group, who are doubtlessly fleeing from the

13 bombing, are being maliciously qualified as deportation.

14 JUDGE MAY: What is the question? We don't want comments. You

15 can make them in due course. What is the question for this witness?

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] We have seen that mention is

17 being made continuously and reference made to refugees, what is being

18 referred to is refugees, and including displaced persons within the

19 frameworks of inside Kosovo, the territory inside Kosovo. We have also

20 seen a great deal of maps in which the witness has stated in the

21 affirmative the names of the towns, what they're called, where the roads

22 are, where the railway lines are, where the rivers are, questions of that

23 type.

24 Now, as the indictment -- as the Prosecution has brought this

25 witness to speak about deportation, I should like to ask the witness the

1 following:

2 Q. Is there anywhere on these maps, the maps that we have seen, was

3 there a collection centre, a camp, a concentration centre for deportation

4 of any kind? I have not seen it on any of the maps that you showed us.

5 Now, I'm asking you, did it exist or did it not? Yes or no,

6 please.

7 A. There were concentration points, and the witnesses who will give

8 either live evidence or through 92 bis will describe those.

9 Q. I asked you whether there was a concentration camp of any kind.

10 A. Is this a concentration camp in the form of what?

11 JUDGE MAY: If you don't know, say you don't know.

12 THE WITNESS: I don't understand the term he's using.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. A point of concentration when somebody is travelling can be a

15 railway station, for example. It can be a bus station too. It can also

16 be a main road. And you have described to us those elements on the map.

17 But what I'm talking about is any kind of -- the existence of any kind of

18 organised place of concentration that was under guard, that was guarded,

19 that was walled in, or anything of that kind. And as you have not

20 included it in any of your maps, does that mean that it did not exist or

21 did you fail to include it in your maps intentionally? So all I'm asking

22 you is: Did it exist or did it not; yes or no.

23 A. There were points, which the witnesses will address, as to

24 concentration areas. Due to the type of map we were looking to achieve,

25 something simple to assist the Court in the direction people moved, we did

1 not include this type of information.

2 JUDGE MAY: It's suggested to you that you intentionally left

3 information off the map. Would that be true or not?

4 THE WITNESS: No, sir. It was never the intention to put this

5 type of information on the map. The witnesses we're relying on, they can

6 describe exactly where these places were.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Does that mean that you are making up your lack of material facts

9 by witnesses?

10 JUDGE MAY: The witness simply said he drew a map. Now, what is

11 the question that arises from that?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From that, it emerges that on the

13 witness's maps there is nothing except roads, railways, rivers, and

14 towns. You could have taken those maps ten years ago and you would see

15 the same roads, railways, rivers, and towns on them. And when people are

16 fleeing from a bombing, they move along roads and railway lines. They use

17 the communication routes.

18 JUDGE MAY: Unless you've got any more questions, we're going to

19 let this witness go.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have some more questions.

21 I do.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You said that you worked as a policeman.

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. How did you ensure the presence of individuals whom you

1 questioned, interviewed?

2 A. It was either by arresting them at the time, when they were found

3 to be committing offences, or by invitation.

4 Q. I heard the first part of your sentence, but not the second. What

5 did you say in the second part?

6 A. By invitation, by requesting them to attend at a police station

7 for questioning.

8 Q. How did you select the individuals you invited to come to the

9 police station for statement taking and questioning?

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me, Your Honours. As a matter of

11 clarification --

12 JUDGE MAY: There is no relevance in this, I know.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: No, but also a point of clarification. Is he

14 talking about in his former life as a policeman in Australia, or now,

15 or -- I don't understand.

16 JUDGE MAY: I wouldn't worry for the moment. Yes.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is my question clear? I am asking

18 how he ensured the presence of the individuals whom he questioned in

19 Kosovo and Metohija and on the basis of whose statements he established

20 this. I'm talking about those individuals, those persons. I'm not

21 talking about how he ensured the presence of persons in his previous

22 career. And I think I put it very clearly, so that your comment is

23 completely unfounded.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic. Let the witness

25 answer.

1 Did you interview any of these witnesses yourself?

2 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.

3 JUDGE MAY: He can't answer that.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. On the basis of what was all -- were all these documents devised?

6 You talked to the witnesses.

7 You have brought in a witness who did not talk to the individuals

8 upon whose statements he drew these maps, on the basis of whose statements

9 the product of everything he set forward was made.

10 A. Investigators from the ICTY went out, spoke to witnesses and other

11 persons, obtained statements from them --

12 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Spargo.

13 Registrar, this is Exhibit 3 and map 1. Could you show that on

14 the ELMO. This is just an example. You noticed there are some comments

15 on the right bottom side. There are the source, and there's names up

16 here.

17 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

18 JUDGE KWON: Could you tell the Court what these names are.

19 THE WITNESS: Berisha, Elshani, Hoti, and Salihi. They are the

20 witnesses who were selected which told the best accounts of the different

21 events and will be either giving live evidence or via 92 bis.

22 JUDGE KWON: Have you interviewed them yourself?

23 THE WITNESS: No, I have not.

24 JUDGE KWON: You just saw statements of them.

25 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

1 JUDGE KWON: And you made the map on the basis of their

2 statements.

3 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Therefore, the witness claims that he drew up the maps on the

7 basis of the statements made by the staff of the Prosecution; yes or no.

8 A. The statements were taken by the staff of the Prosecution from the

9 Office of the Prosecutor. The testimony within those statements, as you

1