1 Tuesday, 26 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I continue where I left off,

8 I should like to say the following: It is quite clear that the only means

9 that I have at my disposal is a telephone and even that telephone,

10 yesterday afternoon, wasn't working. But that's just a small detail.

11 I don't think we can talk about any kind of equality of arms

12 between the parties or any kind of trial, even before an illegal Tribunal

13 of this kind, when there is absolutely no equality of arms, when one party

14 only has the right to a telephone, whereas the other side has all the

15 strength and power and everything here to construct these false

16 accusations and indictments, and that is why I once again ask you to set

17 me free, because I have the right to equality, to an equality of arms and

18 to a defence.

19 You know that the international pact on human and political rights

20 and the European Conventions --

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I'm -- Mr. Milosevic, I'm going to

22 interrupt you for this reason: There is a witness here, and we're in the

23 middle of his examination. If we're in the middle of an examination of

24 the witness, it's right to finish that and then, at an appropriate time,

25 to deal with administrative matters.

1 Now, the Prosecution, in this case, as I understand it, have some

2 matters which they wish to raise.

3 Mr. Nice, is that right?

4 MR. NICE: Certainly. I discussed it with --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

6 MR. NICE: Yes, there are some matters we wish to raise. I've

7 discussed it with your legal officer just shortly this morning before you

8 came in. It would be more convenient to be dealt with perhaps tomorrow

9 than today, not least because a motion dealing with 92 bis is in the final

10 stages of preparation and will be served, I hope, by lunchtime today. But

11 it's obviously a matter that the Chamber, the amici, and the accused may

12 wish to consider, and for other reasons tomorrow will be more convenient

13 than today, although today is possible if that's what the Chamber would

14 prefer.

15 JUDGE MAY: Would it be convenient to deal with it after the next

16 witness? Rather than fixing a time to finish another witness and then

17 deal with those matters?

18 MR. NICE: Certainly.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 Mr. Milosevic, we will deal with administrative matters - and this

21 will be the rule throughout the trial - at appropriate times. So what

22 we'll do is we'll hear your applications after the next witness. If there

23 are urgent matters, of course, you can raise them as you have done in the

24 past, but on the whole, we should try and deal with the witnesses'

25 evidence once they've started and finish it before we break it off. So if

1 you will finish your cross-examination now, and we'll deal with the other

2 matters tomorrow.

3 WITNESS: AGRON BERISHA [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

6 Q. [Interpretation] Is your cousin, your uncle's relative Naim

7 Berisha? Is that his name?

8 A. I am Agron Berisha, and I said at the start of my testimony that

9 Naim Berisha is a close cousin, if we are talking about Naim Berisha, the

10 doctor, who at the moment is living and working in Germany and who has

11 been there for the last seven or eight years.

12 Q. I'm talking about the Naim Berisha who was the head of the

13 terrorist group of the KLA, who is your cousin on your uncle's side.

14 A. I must say that the accused is confusing the Naims who have lived

15 in Suhareke. The Naim Berisha who I mentioned is my uncle's son and lives

16 in Germany and is a doctor by profession.

17 JUDGE MAY: Are you related to the Naim Berisha who it is said is

18 connected to the KLA?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean he's connected with the

20 KLA now or was connected with the KLA?

21 JUDGE MAY: Do you know a Naim Berisha connected with the KLA at

22 any time?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. My cousin, the doctor, Naim

24 Berisha, who is away, I said the truth. He is a doctor and works in

25 Germany. I also knew another Naim Berisha who died in the war. He was a

1 distant cousin of mine, and I didn't have any connection with him. I

2 didn't know him personally. I only knew him as a face, and I know very

3 little about him.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. That's the answer.

5 THE ACCUSED [Interpretation] All right. We've heard answers like

6 this. One of the previous witnesses said that he didn't even know his own

7 son.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So your cousin, this man Naim Berisha, do you happen to know that

10 the killed policeman, Vranovci, whom I mentioned yesterday, and he was

11 also an Albanian, was an uncle of his on his mother's side?

12 A. I don't know anything about these things that the accused is

13 talking about.

14 Q. Do you know that this man Naim Berisha, whom you say is a distant

15 cousin, killed that uncle of his by the name of Vranovci?

16 A. I said that Naim Berisha was a distant cousin of mine. There are

17 about 150 Berisha families in Suhareke. I do not have close ties of blood

18 with the person you have mentioned and I don't know anything about him

19 killing an uncle of his.

20 Q. That is usually the state of affairs amongst you, that you have no

21 connections. You talked about a cousin who was killed at a petrol station

22 too. Did you know that that particular petrol station in your town was

23 full of weapons and ammunition belonging to the KLA?

24 A. The cousin about whom I spoke was Jashar Berisha, and he too was a

25 distant cousin of mine. Jashar, the late Jashar, was not killed; he

1 disappeared. He was taken on the 26th of March 1999 by people whom I

2 don't know. He was taken several hours after the events in the pizzeria

3 belonging to the Shala family, in which the Serbian police killed women,

4 men, children, in the cruelest fashion, and unborn children too.

5 JUDGE MAY: You were asked about the petrol station. It's

6 suggested that it was full of weapons and ammunition belonging to the

7 KLA. That is the suggestion which is made. Do you know anything about

8 that? If you don't, Mr. Berisha, simply say "No."

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. How, then, do you know how the people were killed in the cafe,

12 when you weren't there either?

13 A. In my testimony, I explained very well. I didn't see these

14 murders. These murders were related to me by people who were witness, who

15 were eyewitnesses of this horror on that day.

16 Q. That means that you are testifying to things that you have just

17 heard about from others; is that right?

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, he said that in his evidence. He

19 said: I didn't see this, but I was told about it by survivors. Now, we

20 understand that. We understand that, and this doesn't call for comment.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Did you claim yesterday that you watched somebody in front of a

23 bus station killing a man or, rather, a man and a woman, a male and female

24 person?

25 A. No, it's not right that I said that. I said that several minutes

1 after I saw Nexhmedin Berisha wounded, seriously wounded and lying on the

2 ground, and his wife, pregnant wife Lirie dragging him across the ground

3 and putting him behind a shop in behind the shopping centre known as

4 Malesia Reisen, a few minutes later, I saw a policeman looking at the

5 ground and following some traces on the ground, and I'm supposing that he

6 was following the bloodstains of the wounded Nexhmedin.

7 Q. The policeman you saw, you saw him in front of the bus station.

8 That's what you said; is that right?

9 A. He was in the bus station, and the police came out of a small door

10 in the fence behind the bus station, following, it appears, the

11 bloodstains of the wounded Nexhmedin.

12 Q. And you saw that, did you?

13 A. I saw the policeman. I saw him watching the ground and walking.

14 Q. I received information yesterday, while the phone was still

15 working, that between your house and the bus station there is a building,

16 Kosovovino, belonging to the Kosovovino company, and that from where you

17 were, you couldn't see the bus station at all because of this building in

18 between. Is that true or not?

19 A. It is not true. The high building from which we're talking is

20 about 200 or 300 metres from my house.

21 Q. You claim, therefore, that from your house you saw the policeman

22 at the bus station looking for that cousin of yours who was wounded; is

23 that right? Is that what you're saying?

24 A. I said that the policeman was looking at the ground. And I

25 supposed that he had found these traces of blood from the wounded

1 Nexhmedin and was walking them -- walking along them. I am not sure what

2 he was looking for or who he was looking for, and I only saw -- said what

3 I had seen.

4 Q. Everything that you saw -- the only thing that you saw was the

5 policeman walking and looking at the ground at the bus station; is that

6 right?

7 A. Not in the bus station. I said that he came out of the little

8 door in the fence round the bus station, and in the place where I had seen

9 the wounded Nexhmedin, he started to look at the ground and to walk,

10 looking at the ground. And he went in the direction in which the wounded

11 Nexhmedin was dragged by his wife.

12 Q. How far from your house and from where you were watching is it to

13 the bus station?

14 A. Seventy to 80 metres.

15 Q. And it is on the basis of you seeing the policeman that you

16 concluded that he was looking for your cousin; is that it?

17 A. I said that I supposed that he was following the traces of the

18 blood of the wounded Nexhmedin.

19 Q. Very well. You are testifying on the basis of your assumptions.

20 Do you happen to know -- do you know --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours, a moment.

22 I am not -- I am not here to make suppositions or to give my own views. I

23 have come here to testify to what I saw with my own eyes. I saw how my

24 cousins were killed in the most cruel fashion by the police, and I saw

25 this event by -- with my own eyes, and I'm not going to deal with

1 assumptions.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Berisha, we understand that. As you'll

3 appreciate, the accused is entitled to ask you questions about your

4 evidence. If they're not proper or they're in the form of comment, we

5 will not require you to answer.

6 It may assist matters -- it's a matter for you but it may assist

7 matters if you answer the questions shortly - "Yes" and "No" are sometimes

8 sufficient - and we might be able to get on more quickly in that way.

9 Mr. Milosevic, this is a chance for asking questions, as you'll

10 appreciate, not for commenting on the witness's evidence.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume that I am asking the

12 questions.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but not making comments.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Do you know how many policemen were killed before the aggression

16 in the environs of Suva Reka?

17 A. Before which aggression?

18 Q. Before the NATO aggression, before the 24th of March, in fact.

19 A. I would call the NATO aggression an attack by NATO on the former

20 Yugoslavia. It was not aggression.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Don't worry about that. Can you just answer the

22 question whether you know how many policemen were killed before the 24th

23 of March.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Do you know about an event when, on the 29th of April, 1998, a

2 person was killed? His name was Sasa Jovic, and he was a policeman, and

3 he was killed at Dulje, which is very close to you.

4 A. The village of Dulje is not far from Suhareke. It's about nine

5 kilometres away. I don't know about this event, because at this time, on

6 29th of April, 1998, I was studying.

7 Q. And the 17th of June, 1998, what about that, when, at the same

8 spot, a policeman was killed, another one? His name was Sladjan Niric.

9 Do you know anything about that?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you hear anything about it?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know about another event that took place on the 24th of

14 June, 1998, in the village of Birac? That's three kilometres away from

15 Suva Reka.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Well, I haven't asked you what the incident was yet.

18 JUDGE MAY: He doesn't know about any incident that day. Yes,

19 let's move on.

20 When was it you said you got back, Mr. Berisha, to Suva Reka, from

21 your studies?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I returned the day after graduating

23 to Suhareke. I graduated on the 25th, so I returned home on the 26th of

24 June, 1998.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Therefore, you heard nothing about the incident in which seven

2 people were killed, including a child, only three kilometres away from

3 Suva Reka, one day prior to your arrival in Suva Reka; is that right?

4 A. I don't know anything about the event you are talking about.

5 Q. And do you know about another incident when, at Dulje, Dragan

6 Tomasevic, Milos Stevanovic, and Goran Boskovic were killed, on the 8th of

7 January, 1999? At that time, you were practicing as a doctor in Suva

8 Reka.

9 A. I was working at that time in Suhareke, but I hadn't heard about

10 the incident you're talking about.

11 Q. Did you hear about an incident in Sematista, nearby Suva Reka,

12 when, again, on the 28th of March this time, 1999, Ivica Spasic was

13 killed? He was also a policeman.

14 A. On the 28th of March, I was with my aunt in Prizren. This was the

15 time when I was forced to flee my home, and I stayed with my aunt for four

16 days. So it was impossible for me to find out about what was happening in

17 Suhareke, and still more in the village of Sematista.

18 Q. I assume you know nothing again about the killing of seven

19 policemen in Suva Reka at the beginning of April, or rather, in April.

20 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think we dealt with that yesterday. He was in

21 Albania in April, and said, when he was asked about events then, that he

22 knew nothing about them.

23 Is that right, Mr. Berisha?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. You said yesterday that you saw nothing of the bombing; is that

2 right, or heard it either?

3 A. I said that after the beginning of the NATO attack, I didn't stay

4 long in Kosova. In all, I spent three days in my home and four days with

5 my aunt in Prizren. During this time, I didn't see anything of these

6 bombings.

7 Q. That's why I'm asking you. That's precisely why I'm asking you,

8 because on the 24th of March, that is to say, on the first day, the

9 repeater station Bukova Lala was bombed, near Suva Reka, and the whole of

10 Suva Reka vibrated from that bombing. Is it possible that you could have

11 heard nothing of that?

12 A. The place about which you're talking, Bukova Lala, is a long way

13 from Suhareke, deep in the hills, and above the village of Budakov. I

14 didn't hear any detonation or thunder or great noise on that night.

15 Q. How do you know it was during the night?

16 A. Well, the bombings, the NATO bombings, started at 8.00 on the

17 evening of 24th of March, 1999.

18 Q. And do you know about a residential block near the market in Suva

19 Reka, which is 500 metres from your own house, and was hit by a bomb?

20 A. My house is near the police station, near the bus station, and the

21 place about which you're talking is in an entirely different part of the

22 town of the Suhareke.

23 Q. Suva Reka is a small town. I suppose that when a bomb hits a

24 small area of a small town, the whole town knows about this, and you're

25 claiming that you know nothing of it. Well, just go ahead and say you

1 don't know anything about it and we'll continue.

2 A. I need not answer this comment. This is not questions that you're

3 putting to me.

4 JUDGE MAY: When is it alleged that the bomb hit the residential

5 block near the market? What date is that, Mr. Milosevic?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At the very beginning of the

7 bombing. I don't have the exact date. My phone didn't work yesterday

8 afternoon, so I couldn't find this out.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes. Can we move on, please?

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Do you know about the KLA attacks prior to the beginning of the

12 aggression in the villages around Suva Reka, Rektina [phoen], three

13 kilometres; Musatiste, six kilometres; Budakovo, five kilometres, Vranic,

14 seven kilometres? So all of these villages around Suva Reka where the KLA

15 attacks took place, do you know anything about these attacks?

16 A. No.

17 Q. But you know everything about the houses being searched when they

18 were looking for weapons after these attacks. As far as I understood, you

19 only know about the searches; is that right?

20 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter for comment, Mr. Milosevic, which you

21 can make to us in due course.

22 Yes. No need to answer that.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I will now refer only to the time when you were in Suva Reka,

1 which means starting with the 23rd of August, 1998, until the beginning of

2 the aggression on the 24th of March.

3 Do you know that 15 Albanian civilians were killed by the KLA?

4 A. I have no knowledge of such an event you are talking about.

5 Q. This all took place in the area of Suva Reka where you resided.

6 A. During that time, I went from my home to my job and back home.

7 All the time I was in Suhareke, I never went to the outskirts of the

8 town. I said right at the outset I didn't see any soldiers of a KLA or

9 any activity conducted by KLA. What occurred in the villages, I don't

10 know, because I haven't been to those villages myself.

11 Q. Do you know that at the end of May in 1998 until the end of June

12 of 1998, Albanian doctors who worked in Belgrade all left Belgrade en

13 masse?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. You didn't hear anything of it, did you?

16 A. No.

17 Q. I was told that there was even a letter by the director of your

18 clinic, stating that Albanian doctors at that time had left all together

19 the clinic and went back to Kosovo. This took place in May and June of

20 1998.

21 A. Apparently you have been misinformed.

22 Q. You said that together with you doing the residential training,

23 there were several Albanians. Did you remain? Did you remain at the

24 clinic after they left?

25 A. I stayed there during all the month of June until the date was up

1 for me to pass the test of graduation, which I took on the 25th of June.

2 One week after me, Flora Belegu was also graduated.

3 Q. What about the rest of them? Did they remain after you at the

4 clinic?

5 A. In June, the lessons ended. The academic year ended. So most of

6 them left to go home on vacation.

7 Q. Very well. Do you remember when in March, prior to the NATO

8 aggression, the KLA announced mobilisation?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Very well. Do you know about the monastery in Musatiste, a

11 Serbian monastery from the thirteenth century?

12 A. I heard that there is a Serb monastery in Musatiste village. I

13 don't think that it dates to the thirteenth century. I have never seen --

14 JUDGE MAY: You needn't worry about that.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Do you know that it was burnt down?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Very well. Do you know how many people were killed in the Suva

19 Reka environs? Perhaps you learned of this later, upon your return. So

20 how many people were killed prior to June of 1999?

21 A. When I returned from Albania, which was on 28th of June, 1999, I

22 found Suhareke destroyed and ruined. In the town of Suhareke, I saw about

23 50 per cent of the houses burnt down. Of the 50 villages of Suhareke, 49

24 were burned. Each and every house of them was burned down. I heard that

25 during this war, Suhareke was deprived of 500 of its dear inhabitants.

1 Q. Do you know about the facts concerning how many people were killed

2 by the KLA in that area, since you know that a lot of people had been

3 killed there? Do you know the figures? Do you know that, according to

4 the records, 72 people had been killed by the KLA? This is what was

5 recorded, and there are a lot of stories going about this as well. Out of

6 these 72 people, 19 were Albanians.

7 A. No, I don't know.

8 Q. All right. I'm not going to ask you anything about these KLA

9 crimes, because it is obvious that you know nothing of this, especially as

10 far as the bombings are concerned. Forty per cent of the bombings took

11 place in Kosovo, and Kosovo represents ten per cent of the entire

12 territory of Yugoslavia, which means that the majority of bombings took

13 place in Kosovo, and you know nothing about this. This is obviously clear

14 from what you stated.

15 Did you go to Prizren after the bombing?

16 JUDGE MAY: I think he dealt with that yesterday, that --

17 Help us, Mr. Berisha. Did you see any bombing in Prizren?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean NATO bombing, sir?

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You said that before the war, the residents in Suva Reka were

23 mistreated and they seldom went out into the streets, and then after that,

24 you said that the policemen confiscated the car of your friend, Fatani,

25 but you also said that it was taken from him for several days. How many

1 days later did they return the car to him?

2 A. He was not my friend; he was a cousin of mine, a close cousin of

3 mine. He was killed on the 26th by the Serbian police and didn't have the

4 good fortune to have his car back. The car remained at the police station

5 in Suhareke. When I went to Albania, I saw the car there. I don't know

6 what happened afterwards.

7 Q. You said you went into town every day; is that right?

8 A. I went to work every day.

9 Q. Did anybody mistreat you, since you went into town every day?

10 A. I went to work every day, very afraid, in fact, but I was not

11 mistreated. I already spoke about my mistreatment which happened on the

12 26th of -- 27th of June, when I was returning from Belgrade. 26th, I'm

13 sorry.

14 Q. This cousin of yours, Fatani, did he belong to the family who had

15 a gas station, the Fatani family who had a gas station in the village of

16 Pirana?

17 A. His name was Faton, and he didn't have any gas station. He was

18 not the owner of any gas stations. He was an unemployed person.

19 Q. I asked you because this gas station was hit by the NATO bomb,

20 which caused fire in the village. You said that from the police station,

21 they shot towards your house. However, you said that nobody was hurt and

22 that in fact the policeman was simply demonstrating how far he could

23 shoot. Did you see him doing that, showing how far he could shoot, or was

24 there perhaps some other reason behind the shooting?

25 A. I didn't say that they fired at my home, someone fired at my

1 home.

2 Q. Either toward your house or toward the area near your house, you

3 said that a bullet went nearby. I think you said through the wall or

4 through the window.

5 A. Yes. I said that in the summer of 1998, someone fired at Ahmet

6 Berisha in his home. The bullet entered his window and hit the back part

7 of his room, the back wall of his room.

8 Q. You said that it was the policemen who did the shooting.

9 A. I went on the next day and saw with my own eyes the hole from

10 where the bullet entered and from where it left. I saw the trajectory of

11 the bullet, which showed that it came from the police station in

12 Suhareke.

13 Q. And how far is the Suva Reka police station?

14 A. From where?

15 Q. From this area that was hit by this bullet that you just

16 described.

17 A. About 100 metres.

18 Q. So that means that from every -- this bullet could have been shot

19 from any point within the 100-metre diameter around it. Is it so or not,

20 since you obviously very professionally concluded that this was the fact,

21 this was the case?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this is not a question. It

23 is a comment by the accused.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Did you see a policeman shoot at the house of your relative?

1 A. No, I didn't. It was evening.

2 JUDGE MAY: I think we've -- Mr. Milosevic, I think we've

3 exhausted this topic. Can we move on, please?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I think this case is obvious.

5 We can continue.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Well, let me put this question in general terms. Was anybody shot

8 at in those days prior to the aggression? Was anybody shot at? Was

9 anybody hit by a bullet in Suva Reka, a bullet shot by the police?

10 A. Yes. I remember well an event which occurred in Suhareke. It was

11 the summer of 1998. That day, about ten persons were killed in the centre

12 of Suhareke. First a worker, a Serbian worker, was killed, who worked in

13 a state-owned shop in the centre of Suhareke. Nobody knew who killed

14 him. I don't know his name, but I know that he was from Sopi village.

15 Afterwards, the police killed eight, up to nine civilians in the

16 streets and houses of that part of the neighbourhood in Suhareke. I

17 remember this event.

18 Q. So you saw it? You saw this event?

19 A. No. I didn't see it myself because, at that time, I was working.

20 The work where I worked was on the second floor of the hospital of

21 Suhareke. I was with my patients and my nurses who were all very scared

22 when we saw the dead Serb person brought to the clinic, and there was a

23 lot of upheaval on the ground floor. I remember that we heard some fire

24 shots on the ground floor of the clinic. We were really very scared. We

25 closed the door of our ward and waited there for everything to boil down,

1 to calm down.

2 Q. Who fired on the ground floor of the hospital?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Didn't you inquire afterwards?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. When the situation calmed down, didn't you inquire about who was

7 shooting on the ground floor?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Was it perhaps an attack of the KLA? I'm talking about this event

10 when this Serb got killed and when they fired at the policeman, this event

11 from the summer of 1998.

12 A. I said he was killed by unknown persons. We never learned who

13 killed him. They were never discovered. He was a civilian. And I feel

14 pains when I see civilians killed irrespective of what ethnicity they

15 belong to.

16 Q. But from my -- from what I gathered, you did not regret the

17 killing of the director of your health centre, Mr. Vuksanovic. Yesterday,

18 you said you didn't feel bad about his death because he was not a good

19 person.

20 JUDGE MAY: We've already gone over that. We're not going back to

21 it.

22 Now, Mr. Milosevic, have you got anything else for this witness?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I certainly do.

24 JUDGE MAY: Well, we will expect you to bring the

25 cross-examination to a close fairly soon.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I expect that you will take

2 an unbiased stance because I have a right to conduct my cross-examination.

3 JUDGE MAY: You have a right to conduct your cross-examination,

4 but we also have a duty to ensure that this trial is concluded

5 expeditiously, and that we will do. Now, you have a right to put your

6 case to the witness. You have a duty to do so. But we note that there's

7 a fair amount of repetition in what you've put and a fair amount of

8 comment. So could you kindly ensure that these -- these matters are dealt

9 with as quickly as possible.

10 Now, let's get on with this and finish this cross-examination.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. When asked whether you heard about some propaganda aimed against

13 Kosovo Albanians, yesterday, as far as I can remember, you replied by

14 saying that you had heard Vojislav Seselj saying -- saying the following,

15 "We will expel all Albanians across the Prokletije mountains."

16 Do you know where Seselj stated this?

17 A. No, I don't know. I said yesterday I heard -- I don't remember

18 whether I heard it on television or read it on newspaper or heard it from

19 someone. I can't be sure.

20 Q. Are you sure that he was speaking about the Albanians, or was he

21 speaking about the KLA terrorists, if he said that at all?

22 A. I said I'm not sure.

23 Q. Do you remember that any functionary, representative of the

24 government, or any official person of Serbia or Yugoslavia said something

25 against the Albanians?

1 A. I do not remember anybody having said such a thing, but it was a

2 reality. It happened. We million Albanians went out of Kosova, and is it

3 very important whether somebody said this or whether somebody didn't?

4 Everybody knows that a million Albanians went.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Berisha, if you'd confine your answers to just

6 dealing with the question. There's no need to comment. Yes.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You said that the president of Macedonia, Gligorov, spoke about

9 the route the Albanians should be expelled by. I did not understand the

10 point of that explanation, so I'm asking you the following now: Are you

11 saying that the leadership of Serbia, or rather, of Yugoslavia, made an

12 agreement about this with Gligorov, the president of Macedonia? Is that

13 what you're saying?

14 A. Yes, that's what I meant. And also the statement of Gligorov, I

15 don't know whether I heard it on television or I heard it from somebody or

16 I read it in a newspaper, mentioning a corridor by which -- the Albanians

17 should go through a corridor through Macedonia to be directed towards

18 Albania.

19 Q. Did you hear of an order by the KLA that everybody should leave

20 Kosovo?

21 A. No. That's ridiculous.

22 Q. And did you hear that the only columns of Albanian refugees who

23 were bombed by NATO were those who were returning and not those who were

24 leaving Kosovo? None of the columns leaving Kosovo were bombed. Did you

25 hear about that?

1 A. I won't talk about what I have heard. I will talk about what I

2 saw with my own eyes. On that day, when I left for Albania, everybody was

3 going in that direction. Nobody was coming back in the other direction.

4 Q. Do you remember a slogan by the KLA: "Let's get out as fast as

5 possible so that we can get back as fast as possible"?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And do you remember all the pamphlets in Albanian, appealing to

8 the Albanians to leave Kosovo?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You never saw a pamphlet of that kind, ever?

11 A. No. These are ridiculous things that you're saying.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that Mr. May will caution the

13 witness not to make comments.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You said yesterday that after establishing the Kosovo Verification

16 Mission, the state of affairs changed radically.

17 A. Yes, that's what I said.

18 Q. And the mission lasted six months?

19 A. I said about six months. I don't know exactly how long, but

20 something like that.

21 Q. It's not important to know exactly, but do you consider that the

22 situation had returned to normal in Suva Reka, completely?

23 A. Approximately normal.

24 Q. Do you consider that the following conclusion is right and

25 correct, dating back to those times -- or rather, the following

1 observation, do you consider it to be correct? The observation is as

2 follows: In the whole region - Prizren, Pec - that means that whole

3 region along the Albanian border -- but let me read the full observation.

4 In the whole region of Prizren and Pec, there were abductions being

5 carried out and killings of Albanians loyal to the Federal Republic of

6 Yugoslavia, on orders from the command structure of the KLA.

7 JUDGE MAY: I think, Mr. Milosevic, you've put this case

8 thoroughly. We've heard what the witness has said. He said he knows

9 nothing about this, and nothing is to be gained by repeating questions

10 over and over and over again in a different form. Now, is there anything

11 else on a new topic that you wish to ask this witness? Otherwise, we're

12 going to conclude the cross-examination.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you are not allowing me to

14 finish even my question. I asked the witness whether the situation

15 changed radically for the better after the arrival of the Verification

16 Mission, and he said yes. And I now quoted a portion of a report by the

17 Verification Mission of the OSCE relating to the 5th to the 12th of March,

18 1999, in which it is officially noted that during that period, when he

19 says he considers the situation was normal, that in the whole region of

20 Prizren and Pec, there were abductions and killings going on of Albanians

21 loyal to the SFRY, on orders from the command structures of the KLA, and I

22 am quoting a report by that particular mission for the period that the

23 witness considers the situation was normal and which refers to the

24 activities of the KLA themselves, precisely.

25 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Very well. That question will be put.

1 You've heard what Mr. Milosevic has read out to you. It is in

2 relation to the period which you described earlier. Now, then, do you

3 agree with the observations made in that report or not?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can reply about the situation in

5 Suhareke because I said I didn't go out among the villages or in the towns

6 mentioned by the accused. I can only talk about the situation in

7 Suhareke, and at that time, people came out more freely into the town,

8 some cafes opened, so that, more or less, the situation became more

9 relaxed.

10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you can tender that report in due

11 course as part of the evidence and we'll consider it, but there seems

12 little point in going on with this witness with this line of questioning

13 when you've heard the answers. Now, unless you've got anything else,

14 we'll conclude it.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do have something else, yes, but

16 at your insistence, I will skip this portion.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. The period of the mission and the KLA activities, and when you say

19 the situation was normal, you skipped over that, but you did note that the

20 situation deteriorated rapidly when the Verification Mission was

21 withdrawn. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's what I said. After the international observers left,

23 the situation became very serious, and it went back to the same it was

24 that prevailed in my town in the summer of 1998.

25 Q. Do you consider that this sudden withdrawal of the Verification

1 Mission was, therefore, a factor which had a negative effect on the

2 situation in Kosovo and Metohija?

3 A. I didn't understand this question.

4 Q. You said that the situation was normal during the presence of the

5 Verification Mission and that after that, after it withdrew suddenly, the

6 situation deteriorated. That's what you said.

7 Now, do you consider that this withdrawal of the Verification

8 Mission was a factor which had negative repercussions on the situation in

9 Suva Reka where you, for instance, lived? I don't want to say Kosovo and

10 Metohija, but in Suva Reka, where you in fact lived.

11 A. But the very fact that the situation went in that direction shows

12 that the departure of the international observers led to a deterioration

13 of the situation.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm going to skip over all

15 the questions that I wanted to ask with respect to concrete events, but I

16 can't skip over all of them.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, you know that the provisional executive council of Kosovo

19 and Metohija, at the beginning of the aggression, issued an order that

20 every health centre should set up two medical teams for assistance to the

21 refugees and the injured and wounded from the bombing. What did your

22 medical centre do? Did it set up these two teams?

23 A. I have no knowledge of any medical teams such as you mention. I

24 was a gynaecologist, and I was -- dealt with my own work.

25 Q. Did you, as a gynaecologist, make up part of any medical team for

1 assistance to the refugees and the casualties of the bombing?

2 A. During the NATO bombing, you mean?

3 Q. Yes. I mean during the war, the whole war.

4 A. I said two days before the NATO bombing, I wasn't able to go to

5 work because I was in physical danger.

6 Q. How many Albanians were doctors in Suva Reka? Apart from you, how

7 many others were there?

8 A. I don't know the exact numbers, but there were 20 to 25 Albanian

9 doctors in the clinic of Suhareke municipality.

10 Q. Were they afraid too, or had they been appointed as members in

11 these medical teams?

12 A. I have no knowledge of the creation of these medical teams. This

13 is the first time I've heard about this.

14 Q. Do you know anything about the burning of Serb houses in the Suva

15 Reka municipality?

16 A. I returned from 28th -- on the 28th of June from Albania, in

17 1999. That is three weeks after the end of the war, after the agreement

18 was signed. The reason why I was late was that I had a small child --

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Berisha, we'll get on much better, just answer yes

20 or no. Do you know about the burning of Serb houses?

21 A. Yes. When I returned, I saw some houses of Serbs burnt.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Did you see a Serb house that hadn't been burnt in Suva Reka?

24 Now.

25 A. Yes. There are a lot, a lot. But there are Albanians now living

1 in these houses. Albanians whose houses were burned are living there, and

2 people who are unable to renovate their houses are living in them.

3 Q. And the houses that weren't forcibly taken over by the Albanians

4 were burnt; is that right? The Serb houses, I'm referring to.

5 A. Yes. I said some houses of Serbs in Suhareke I saw burned. Most

6 of them, and also in most of the public housing, Albanians are living.

7 Q. And where are the Serbs from Suva Reka?

8 A. I don't know. I think they are in Serbia.

9 Q. Is there a Serb left in Suva Reka now?

10 A. Not one. Not one.

11 Q. And as far as their houses are concerned, they were either taken

12 over by the Albanians or burnt. Those are the two variations; right?

13 A. I don't think this situation that they were taken is a sufficient

14 one. I'm saying that Albanians are now living there.

15 Q. Well, I didn't expect you to say anything like that, but I just

16 wanted to take note of the fact that those who were forcibly taken over

17 are inhabited now and the rest were burnt. But the fact is that there is

18 not a single Serb in Suva Reka.

19 Do you have any idea how many Serbs were killed and kidnapped

20 after the 10th of June, that is to say, after your arrival there in Suva

21 Reka?

22 A. I arrived in Suhareke on 28th of June, three weeks after the

23 signing of the agreement. I came very late. What happened in those three

24 weeks, I'm not able to say.

25 Q. You have no idea how many Serbs were killed and --

1 JUDGE MAY: He said he doesn't.

2 Q. -- abducted?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

4 MR. NICE: May I raise a point? Your Honour, I reserve comments

5 about the cross-examination by this accused generally for later, but I see

6 the time, and it must be possible that the Chamber will be drawing matters

7 to a conclusion. Perhaps at the break. I don't know. The accused has

8 yet, as I understand it, to cross-examine on the central issue in this

9 case, and I have in mind that the Court drew to his attention his ability

10 to do so under Rule 90, and obviously it's going to help in the joining of

11 issues if he can identify his case and cross-examine on that rather than

12 on matters that may, many of them, be peripheral and irrelevant.

13 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider that.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE MAY: We will deal with the scope of cross-examination

16 generally when we deal with administrative matters, and it would be

17 helpful to hear from the amicus on that too, and we'll hear from the

18 Prosecution.

19 We note that there has been a very great deal of cross-examination

20 about matters which are certainly not central to the witness's evidence.

21 At this stage, we are not going to require the accused to ask any

22 questions. It's a matter for him how he conducts his examination.

23 But this examination should conclude in ten minutes,

24 Mr. Milosevic. You will have had then over two hours cross-examining. In

25 particular, you should ask in that time, if you have any questions you

1 want to ask, with events of what this witness said he saw on the 25th and

2 26th of March.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we differ as to what is

4 essential and what is not. Our views differ on that point. Because that

5 side over there with the false indictment has endeavoured to explain --

6 JUDGE MAY: Just --

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- to explain how the Albanians were

8 subjugated, how they lived in a difficult fashion from 1989 to the NATO

9 aggression, which saved them. And now we hear from the witness here that

10 all that wasn't so. He did his regular university training, and all the

11 other Albanians, who were a majority, that he got a job, that he did his

12 specialist training, that he went to Prizren and other towns, went back to

13 Belgrade and then continued in his job, continued working. They are all

14 essential, vital questions. Now, this pivotal point, this pivotal

15 question that the Prosecution wishes to impose as being pivotal, is what I

16 said in my opening statement, that that false indictment is endeavouring

17 to turn about notorious facts, such as the 78-day aggression and bombing

18 and the KLA activities be denied through witnesses, so that --

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I'm going to stop you. We've heard these

20 points. At this stage, we're dealing with cross-examination of this

21 witness. Now, in the ten minutes remaining, is there anything more you

22 want to ask him?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask questions for as

24 long as I'm given an opportunity to ask questions, and I don't understand

25 why you are limiting me in doing so. It is difficult to make a selection

1 of questions now, but I see that this is a unique case in the world, where

2 a Tribunal, even an unlawful one, openly stands on the side of terrorism.

3 JUDGE MAY: Just ask the questions.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. When you cautioned the policemen -- no. I have a question before

6 that. Let me start again. You said that policemen went round in groups

7 on that day, stormed houses, burnt down doors, and so on.

8 A. Which day do you mean?

9 Q. I'm referring to that critical day that you have been talking

10 about, when they stormed your house, and the day before that as well.

11 A. Yes, and what was the question?

12 Q. The question was: You heard shooting in the house in which a

13 number of people were killed, but you saw nothing; is that right?

14 A. It seems that the witness [as interpreted] was not concentrating

15 on what I was saying. He was not interested in listening to what I said I

16 saw.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Berisha, we'll get on more quickly if you don't

18 comment, please. Now, you've been asked a question. Could you just

19 answer it.

20 A. The events that took place, I saw these in the yard, the events in

21 the yard, and not in the house, at a distance of ten metres. I saw the

22 Serbian police killing civilians, innocent civilians, unarmed.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You said that the shots were in the house and that the policemen

25 were there shooting. I listened to you very carefully. I listened to

1 what you said very carefully, so in addition to what you were saying about

2 the yard.

3 A. I also heard shots in the house, room by room, and the house was

4 quickly enveloped by smoke and flame.

5 Q. And are you sure that nobody shot at the policemen when they

6 entered the house?

7 A. I'm very sure.

8 Q. Were there no weapons in the house at all?

9 A. I think there were no weapons, but the police who came did not

10 come to look for weapons; they came to kill Albanian civilians, men and

11 women, children and pregnant women. The reason, the sole reason, was

12 because they were Albanians.

13 Q. You're an Albanian too.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. They didn't kill you.

16 A. Fortunately, no.

17 Q. Therefore, how do you arrive at the conclusion that they had come

18 to kill the Albanians, whereas you, as an Albanian, was not killed?

19 A. But they went into the other people's house, not my house, and my

20 family was safe.

21 Q. They came to your house too.

22 A. They came to my house on the next day. This was another group of

23 policemen. They came with another duty: to burn my house.

24 Q. Is there an Albanian family without any weapons in Kosovo today,

25 now?

1 A. I do not know whether Albanian families have weapons or not. I

2 say that I don't have weapons in my house, and I didn't have before the

3 war, and never have. I have always considered guns as piles of iron that

4 cause disaster.

5 Q. Let's move on to you personally. You said that they stormed

6 houses, broke down the doors, set fire to them, and then you explained to

7 us that you opened the doors for them. So they did not break down your

8 door; you opened your own front door. Yes or no.

9 A. Yes, I opened the door myself, which wasn't broken by the first

10 kick from the policeman.

11 Q. You said that you warned them to behave properly, and that after

12 that warning, they did behave in a proper manner, or at least more

13 properly.

14 A. What kind of good behaviour is it when they ask for a thousand

15 marks to save a house and to save the lives of the family and then to burn

16 the house?

17 Q. I am just taking note of what you yourself said, and that's what

18 you said.

19 A. Yes, that's what I said. After the start of this dialogue between

20 me and the policemen, they seemed to calm down a bit.

21 Q. And then they asked for all your money - I wrote that down and put

22 it in quotation marks - all your money, and you said you wouldn't give

23 them anything else because they would carry out what they had in mind to

24 do, and that then they released you.

25 A. That's right.

1 Q. So they let you go, although you didn't give them, as you yourself

2 said, all the money, and you cautioned them to behave well, and they let

3 you go nonetheless. And then, to focus on vital issues, you said that you

4 made a very difficult decision, the most difficult decision you had ever

5 had to make in your life, and that was to go to Albania. I'm jumping over

6 the four days you spent in prison -- in Prizren, I'm sorry. Prizren. And

7 now you have to decide between two things, because it is quite obvious

8 that we're dealing with a key question here of showing how allegedly the

9 Serb authorities deported the Albanians. Now, you had to decide. Did you

10 yourself decide to go to Albania or were you deported to Albania by the

11 Serb authorities? Because both things can't be true.

12 A. I think I explained well yesterday why I went to Albania, and I

13 can say again it was the most difficult decision in my life. But to stay

14 in Kosova was a dangerous thing for Albanians at that time. I thought to

15 go to Albania to save my life and the lives of my family, and when all

16 this was over, I would return.

17 Q. I don't want to go into your motives. All I'm saying is that you

18 yourself decided to go to Albania. It wasn't that the Serb authorities

19 deported you, because you said you made that decision, and I assume that

20 you were telling the truth when you said that.

21 The reason you mentioned later on was that you were going so that

22 they should not discover that you had been an eyewitness to some of their,

23 as you explained here, misdeeds. And the police who let you go, who let

24 you leave Suva Reka, undoubtedly knew that you had been there the previous

25 day.

1 So I cannot find anything logical in your explanation, because if

2 they knew that you were an eyewitness --

3 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. You've got a question. The question,

4 I take it, is: Why did the police let you go the day before if you fear

5 that they might have decided to kill you if you were an eyewitness, or to

6 harm you? Can you help or not?

7 A. The police released me after taking a thousand marks from me.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Is that your answer to the question?

10 JUDGE MAY: That's his answer.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 JUDGE MAY: If the interpreters allow us, we will go another five

13 minutes before the break.

14 Mr. Milosevic, you've got another five minutes.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's very difficult for me to

16 choose the questions from all the ones I've got here.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Therefore, you didn't give him all -- give them all the money they

19 asked for, but they let you go nevertheless. You were an eyewitness, but

20 they let you go nevertheless. Now, what can you deduce from this? Did

21 they want to kill you, or did they want to let you go?

22 A. I don't know. Ask them.

23 Q. You can't give an answer to that question?

24 JUDGE MAY: No, it's not for him. It would be for them to

25 answer.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. So you say that the Albanians did not flee because of the bombing,

4 that they did not flee because of the conflicts on the terrain between the

5 army and the KLA, but that they fled exclusively because they were being

6 persecuted by the Serb police and the army of Yugoslavia. That is the

7 gist of your conclusion, is it?

8 A. I think that the residents of the town of Suhareke left because of

9 the 50 victims who died in Suhareke that day and the victims who died in

10 the village of Trnje where men and women, unarmed, were killed. This was

11 a message to the population, "Go, because you are in danger."

12 Q. The population got that message because of the war activities and

13 operations. Do you consider that these activities and operations were

14 also a message to the inhabitants and population to take shelter from the

15 war operations?

16 A. Then -- then they could have taken shelter in their own homes and

17 not left Kosova.

18 Q. And if nearby, near their homes there were conflicts and

19 operations going on between the army and police and the KLA, do you still

20 consider that they could have taken cover and been safe in their own homes

21 without falling casualty in these conflicts?

22 A. I don't know. I wasn't living in such places. Yes. There was

23 never fighting near my house in Suhareke.

24 Q. And now with respect to fighting between the army and the KLA, or

25 the police and the KLA, add to that the bombing, the NATO bombing in

1 support of the KLA. And when you add all this together, do you consider

2 that that was the message sent out to the population, to flee from the

3 danger that it was exposed to?

4 A. No, no. The people were only afraid of the Serbian police and

5 army. This was the reason why they were forced to leave Kosova.

6 Q. Therefore, the bombing was no factor at all. They weren't afraid

7 of any bombing.

8 A. They were not afraid of the NATO bombing. I said we saw the NATO

9 bombing, and we welcomed it with joy. We were convinced that the NATO

10 bombs in Kosova would bring freedom.

11 Q. Did you see how many Albanian corpses were taken out of the rubble

12 and ruins in Pristina, Prizren, and other towns that were bombed by NATO?

13 JUDGE MAY: He's already dealt with these matters, and that -- and

14 that brings the conclusion -- that brings -- Mr. Milosevic, that is now

15 quarter past eleven. That brings the cross-examination to an end, in our

16 judgement.

17 We will now adjourn until quarter to.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] I have one more question, just one

19 more question, Mr. May, please. Just one more question.

20 JUDGE MAY: One more. One.

21 THE ACCUSED: One.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. When, where, and to whom did you give statements about what

24 happened? And when I say -- I mean the authorities of this institution

25 which is filing the indictment. Where and when and to whom did you make

1 these statements?

2 JUDGE MAY: Do you remember that now?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember well. I made my

4 first statement while I was a refugee in Albania and my second statement

5 about a year ago, in Suhareke.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would need just a

10 few minutes for my own cross-examination. Just a few minutes after the

11 break if - with the Court's indulgence, please.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.47 a.m.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Can I

17 just ask you for your indulgence for a brief explanation? You were able

18 to see that we intervened only on a few occasions, asking questions and

19 participating and questioning the witness, and we were guided in this - at

20 least, I speak on my own behalf - by the fact that, as you know,

21 Mr. Milosevic refuses to accept any documents from the Tribunal, including

22 the witness statements, the statements of the witnesses provided

23 previously to the OTP. So therefore, up until now, we only focused on

24 vital questions which Mr. Milosevic was not aware of because they are

25 contained in these previous witness statements. And now I would like to

1 put just one question, which is a vital, pivotal one, concerning this

2 witness's testimony, and this is what it is about.

3 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Berisha, yesterday, during your testimony,

5 you confirmed that, from a short distance, you saw four people being

6 killed: Faton, Djedata [phoen], Sedata [phoen], Gjura; is that correct?

7 A. I stated that from a short distance, I saw two people being

8 killed: Bujar and Sedat Berisha. The following minutes I saw that from

9 the front part of my house -- that is, I saw on the back yard of the other

10 house four dead people whom I could recognise. They were Fatime Berisha,

11 Hava Berisha, Nexhat Berisha, and Faton Berisha. This is what I said

12 yesterday.

13 Q. That is how I understood it as well. However, did you, on the

14 21st of April, 1999, when interviewed by the investigators in Tirana, in

15 Albania, say the following: that from the distance of ten metres, you

16 watched and you saw how four men from that house were lined up, four men -

17 Fatime, Faton, Nedat [phoen], Gjura - and then killed, in other words,

18 that they were shot there at that spot?

19 A. I don't remember to have said that precisely in Albania. If so,

20 it must have been an error on the part of the interpreter. The truth is

21 what I'm saying now, that I saw two men being killed, and then afterwards,

22 four other dead persons of my relatives, who were pulled up to the dead

23 bodies of the previous two persons whom I saw, as I said.

24 Q. Prior to signing this statement, this statement was read to you,

25 and you apparently had no objections at the time.

1 A. Yes, but I'm sure it must have been some errors in translation,

2 even for the second part -- second time when I was read the statement.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, I have no questions. I just wanted to

5 emphasise that all the statements that have been taken from this witness

6 have been served to the accused.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

8 Mr. Berisha, thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to

9 give your evidence. That concludes it, and you are free to go.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

11 MR. NICE: Mr. Ryneveld will be calling the next witness.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 MR. RYNEVELD: If it please the Court, the Prosecution calls as

14 our next witness Ajmane Behrami.

15 And while we're waiting for that witness to be brought into the

16 courtroom, in response to the Court's request last date for an additional

17 line indicating the counts and paragraphs, I have now prepared new copies

18 with that on this trial summary, along with a couple of other

19 typographical changes. So if I may, I would ask that these be distributed

20 to the Court and the amici and the accused in place of the ones you now

21 have. There are some minor things that I think it would be preferable if

22 you would use this one.

23 The other thing, before the witness actually comes into court, I'm

24 going to ask that the declaration be read to her by someone and then

25 translated as opposed to her attempting to read it herself. I understand

1 the witness is unable to read and write.

2 JUDGE MAY: How can we get the declaration read to her?

3 MR. RYNEVELD: I was wondering whether perhaps -- we don't have an

4 Albanian-speaking person. Well, if it could be read in English, it could

5 be translated.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let it be read in English. Perhaps you would

7 like to read it in English. It could be translated and then --

8 MR. RYNEVELD: I would be happy to do so. I'll just go get

9 the ...

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's have the witness in, please.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE MAY: Counsel will read the declaration to you. Could you

13 repeat it when it's being translated by the interpreters? You'll hear

14 that over your headphones.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Witness, would you repeat after me: "I solemnly declare that I

17 will speak the truth ..."

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: "... the whole truth ..."

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: "... and nothing but the truth."

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd like to take a seat.

1 WITNESS: AJMANE BEHRAMI

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

4 Q. Witness, would you state your full name for the Court, please.

5 A. Ajmane Behrami.

6 Q. Now, Witness, I understand at present you are a 32-year-old Kosovo

7 Albanian Muslim widow; is that correct?

8 A. [No translation]

9 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm not getting translation.

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. RYNEVELD:

12 Q. And do I understand correctly that you have four surviving

13 children?

14 A. I used to have five. Now I have four.

15 Q. We'll get back to that in a moment, yes. Thank you.

16 Now, in March of 1999, do I understand correctly that you were a

17 resident of a village called Izbica?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that is in the Srbica/Skenderaj municipality, is it?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. Now, at that time in March of 1999, were you married?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. Was your husband living at home?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What happened to your husband?

1 A. My husband died.

2 Q. When?

3 A. In May.

4 Q. Now, did something happen to your village in March of 1999?

5 A. Yes, it did.

6 Q. Was your husband at home when the incident involving your village

7 occurred?

8 A. No, he was not.

9 Q. Where was he?

10 A. The mountain.

11 Q. Doing what? Do you know?

12 A. No, I don't know.

13 Q. Was there anyone else in the mountains at the time, to your

14 knowledge?

15 A. Yes, but I don't know. I was at home.

16 Q. Yes. We'll get back to that as well. Did your husband belong to

17 any organisation of any kind?

18 A. He was a farmer.

19 Q. Yes. And in addition to being a farmer, did he later join any

20 organisation?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Are you aware of the existence of an organisation called the KLA?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was your husband, to your knowledge, involved in any way with the

25 KLA?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did your husband -- you've already told us that your husband died

3 in May; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. Yes, it's correct.

5 Q. Did you find out how he died?

6 A. I was not there. From the others, I heard that he was killed.

7 Q. Did you hear the circumstances under which he was killed?

8 A. In the mountains. He was there.

9 Q. Doing what? Do you know?

10 A. I know nothing. I was not there. I didn't see anything.

11 Q. Let's move on a little bit and we'll get back to this.

12 You've already told us that you were aware of the existence of a

13 group called the KLA; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. How were you aware of their involvement? Let me rephrase that.

16 Where were they and what were they doing in the area of your village, if

17 anything?

18 A. In Izbica, we didn't have -- in the village, we didn't have anyone

19 there. In the surrounding areas, yes, but I don't know what they did.

20 Q. Are you aware of any fighting that took place in the surrounding

21 area, between the KLA and members of the VJ?

22 A. No. I saw nothing. I don't know.

23 Q. Were you aware that there was fighting in the area?

24 A. Yes. I heard that there was fighting in the surrounding area. I

25 have heard that.

1 Q. Was your husband at any point a member of the KLA?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And was he a member when he died?

4 A. He was civilian. No. He was civilian.

5 Q. I understand you say he was a civilian, but you said he was a

6 member of the KLA. He was in the mountains, and he died; is that

7 correct? At the time he died, was he a member of the KLA?

8 A. No, no. No. He just had taken to the mountains to take shelter.

9 Q. You've told us at some point your husband was a member of the

10 KLA. When was that?

11 A. Before; in the past.

12 Q. Do you remember when that was?

13 A. No, I don't remember.

14 Q. Was it during 1999 or 1998, or some other time? Are you able to

15 give us perhaps a wide range, if you don't know the exact date?

16 A. Not in 1998. In 1999.

17 Q. Do you remember any particular incident that occurred that may

18 have prompted him to join the KLA?

19 A. No, I don't know.

20 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to ask you very briefly to describe

21 what life was like in your village prior to the outbreak of this

22 difficulty in March of 1999. Can you describe for us what the village

23 living conditions were like?

24 A. We heard fire shots. Sorry. It was difficult.

25 Q. And difficult -- can you give us some examples of how life was

1 difficult in your village prior to March of 1999?

2 A. It was difficult to live, because we were not free to leave our

3 houses, especially the young people.

4 Q. What prevented their freedom from leaving their houses? Who did

5 what?

6 A. They couldn't go out in the streets because the Serb policemen did

7 not allow them. If they found them out, they beat them, they robbed them,

8 everything.

9 Q. I see. Now, do you recall an incident in March of 1999 when NATO

10 conducted a military exercise in a neighbouring community?

11 A. Nothing happened in our area.

12 Q. All right. Can you tell us where Skenderaj is? How far away was

13 that?

14 A. I don't know. I can't tell you. It is far from us.

15 Q. Do you remember an incident involving NATO and Skenderaj?

16 A. I heard people say that there was an attack mounted on the

17 munitions factory there.

18 Q. I see. And I'd like you to turn your mind now to two days after

19 that attack. What, if anything, happened to your village two days after

20 you heard about the attack on Skenderaj by NATO?

21 A. On the 28th of March, for two days, they bombed the village, the

22 surrounding villages: Broje, Vojniku, Pilic [phoen], Liqina. They are

23 surrounding villages. They were shelled for two days. Then, after two

24 days, they came to Izbica.

25 Q. All right. I'm going to stop you there. The transcript seems to

1 suggest that you said: "On the 28th of March, for two days, they bombed

2 the village." Who are you talking about bombing the village? Are you

3 talking about NATO or someone else?

4 A. No, not NATO. Serb policemen and army. Not NATO.

5 Q. So when you say "bombed" in that respect, do you actually mean

6 bombing or do you mean shelling or do you mean something entirely

7 different? Explain that.

8 A. I mean shelling, not actual bombing, but shelling. I mean

9 shelling.

10 Q. I see. Can you explain to the Court, if you would, please, just

11 tell in your own words now what happened to your village.

12 A. On the 28th of March, from morning, 7.00 in the morning, we heard

13 shelling, all kinds of fire shots. At 11.00, we saw six tanks come to the

14 village. There were other vehicles, but I don't remember. Then they

15 came, surrounded the village from all sides, and they have -- they have

16 sheltered us -- put us together: women, children, old people. Then the

17 infantry troops came to the village, and then the children were afraid and

18 they started to cry, and they found us out. They came and separated the

19 men from the women. They have lined up the men. They forced us to leave

20 in the direction of Albania. We left. The men were stopped there. I was

21 there with my five children, and then the Serb soldiers asked to give them

22 money. I gave them 100 Deutschmarks. And then we set out. After walking

23 about 30 metres, we went to a hill in Apasha [phoen], and then we sat

24 there and then we saw them burning the village. We stayed there for two

25 or three hours. I don't remember well. We heard the fire shots, and then

1 we heard that they had shot 108 people. I didn't see that with my own

2 eyes, but I heard from others.

3 JUDGE MAY: Just pause there.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I thought I should let the

5 witness just go on a free flow for a minute to get her story out, and then

6 I was going to back up and have her fill in the details.

7 Q. We're going to stop there for a moment. I'm going to back up a

8 little bit and ask you some specific questions to fill in some details, if

9 I may. All right? Do you understand, Witness? Thank you.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, you've told us that when the assault began on your village,

12 there was shelling; is that correct? What effect did that shelling have

13 on your village?

14 A. What do you mean by "what effect"? I don't understand.

15 Q. Well, was any damage being caused? What did the people do as a

16 result of that?

17 A. We got together there in a place. They were shelling all over

18 us. Then the infantry troops came, I said.

19 Q. All right. Now, you call them "infantry troops." Can you tell us

20 how many infantry troops came into your village, approximately?

21 A. Approximately -- many. I can't say how many exactly. I couldn't

22 say how many they were coming.

23 Q. I believe you also said there were police. Am I correct in that?

24 Or did you say infantry and police or just infantry?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

1 Q. I'm sorry. That was my fault. My question was double-sided. Yes

2 to what? Yes to military and police?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You also mentioned six tanks. What do you mean when you say

5 "tanks"?

6 A. Tanks. I mean tanks.

7 Q. And you also said there were other military vehicles as well; is

8 that correct? Nodding your head won't assist. We need an answer. Thank

9 you.

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: At this point, I'm going to ask that the usher show

12 you, I believe, Exhibit 17 and 18. First we'll start with 17, please.

13 Q. Now, Exhibit 17, I'm going to ask you to look -- there are some --

14 MR. RYNEVELD: No. Usher, could you hand it to the witness first

15 so she can look at it before we put it on the ELMO.

16 Q. There are four pages of photographs. Would you just have a look

17 at those four pages, please. Just take them in your hand. And before you

18 comment, would you look at all four pages.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'm not sure you've gone through all four pages, but I see you've

21 stopped at a particular photograph and pointed to it. Do you see in those

22 photographs any military vehicle that looked like the tanks that you've

23 just described to us?

24 A. This one; 6.

25 Q. All right.

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, would you please put the photograph the

2 witness has indicated, number 6, on the ELMO so that Their Honours can see

3 what the witness has selected.

4 Q. Okay. Now, Witness, you have selected from Exhibit 17, which

5 contains a series of 15 photographs, photograph number 6. Does that look

6 like the kind of vehicles that you call tanks that were in your village on

7 the 28th of March?

8 A. Yes. This is what I saw coming to our village.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the witness also be shown Exhibit number 18.

11 And again show it to the witness before putting it on the ELMO.

12 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you to look at what has been marked as

13 Exhibit number 18. There is a series of photographs on one sheet. You've

14 told us about infantry troops and police. Do you see in any of those

15 photographs any uniforms that look like the infantry uniforms that you saw

16 in your village?

17 A. Yes; this one here.

18 Q. And does it have a number underneath it?

19 A. Nine.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Would you -- Mr. Usher, would you please place that

21 on the ELMO.

22 A. And 6, the police.

23 MR. RYNEVELD:

24 Q. All right. So the police were wearing uniforms like number 6?

25 A. No, no. That's not the right uniform.

1 Q. How is it different?

2 A. The colours are a bit lighter. Light blue and dark blue.

3 Q. All right. Would you please place the Exhibit 17 on the -- or 18,

4 18 on the ELMO so Their Honours can see, first of all, number 9, I believe

5 the witness indicated. It's not visible. There we are. Thank you.

6 And then the police uniforms, something like but a lighter blue in

7 number 6, is that what you're saying, Witness?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Would you show number 6, please.

10 Q. And those are the police in number 6; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, I believe you've told us that when these people came to your

13 village, the men were separated from the women. How was it --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How was it that you were separated from each other? Did you --

16 how was it that you gathered together to be separated?

17 A. Because the infantry troops came. I said to you they ordered the

18 men to be separated from us women and we women ordered to set out in the

19 direction of Albania.

20 Q. Yes. Now, I take it at some point you're all in your homes. How

21 is it you left your homes and where did you go initially when you were

22 separated?

23 A. You mean when we separated from the men?

24 Q. No. I'm backing up a little further. The infantry came.

25 A. Uh-huh. I see.

1 Q. How was it that you left your homes and where did you go in order

2 to be separated?

3 A. We were about 30 metres away from our homes where we got together

4 in a pasture, in a field. About 3.000 people.

5 Q. I see. And these 3.000 people, these were all civilian

6 inhabitants of Izbica, were they?

7 A. No, no. There were all kinds of inhabitants from all the

8 surrounding villages, not only from Izbica.

9 Q. And do you know how it is that those people ended up in this large

10 pasture or field?

11 A. They came because they thought we were more safe there.

12 Q. Do I understand you to be saying that these people left from

13 neighbouring villages and came to Izbica first and then joined the

14 residents of Izbica in this field?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I see.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I believe then you told us that you were separated. How did

19 that take place? Who told you what to do? Who did the telling? Who did

20 the ordering? What happened?

21 A. The Serb police and army soldiers, they were mixed together. I

22 remember one of them talking to us in Albanian. "Go straight to

23 Albania." And then they asked the men to sit on the side of the street,

24 whereas us they ordered to leave for Albania.

25 Q. Did anybody appear to be in charge?

1 A. Yes. He had -- he had an insignia, I think. I don't know, but I

2 thought he was of a higher rank because he had an insignia on his arm.

3 Q. Could you tell whether this person you're referring to was a

4 soldier or policeman?

5 A. No, no. He was a policeman.

6 Q. And did you see anyone there using a form of communication to

7 other members? In other words, did he have any radio? Did you see anyone

8 with a hand-held radio?

9 A. Yes, yes, I did. He had a radio in his hand.

10 Q. And what was he doing with the radio? Did you hear him speak?

11 A. He spoke. I couldn't say what he was saying in Serbian. I saw

12 that he was saying something. We were afraid what they were going to do

13 to us, to kill us or to drive us away. I couldn't say what he was

14 saying. It was in Serbian.

15 Q. So the person -- all right. He was speaking Serbian, this person

16 with the radio; is that correct?

17 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

18 Q. During the course of this, how were you being treated?

19 A. They drove us to the street. I said to you we went to another

20 village. We stayed there.

21 Q. All right. You said you were told to go to Albania; is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Who told you that?

25 A. The Serb soldiers. The Serb soldiers and police. They were all

1 mixed up there.

2 Q. Were you permitted to take any cars or tractors or trailers or

3 other means of transport?

4 A. No. No, nothing. Nothing at all. We left everything behind in

5 the village. We just went on foot.

6 Q. How many women, children went on foot?

7 A. About 3.000 people. I can't give you an exact figure, but we were

8 only women and children. I said the men we left behind. They were

9 separated from us.

10 Q. Do you know approximately how many men were left behind?

11 A. About 150 or 60. I can't tell for sure.

12 Q. Where were the rest of the men?

13 A. What do you mean "the rest of the men"?

14 Q. Well, I understand we have close to 3.000 women and children and

15 150 men. Do you know if that was all the men in the village or were other

16 men in the village elsewhere?

17 A. No, no. All the -- they were inhabitants from all other villages,

18 I said, people who couldn't take to the mountains, and they came there, to

19 Izbica.

20 Q. All right. So those who couldn't go to the mountains went to

21 Izbica, and that was largely gathered in that field; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. And these men that were left behind, can you tell the Court

24 approximately what age groups were represented in that 150 or 160 men?

25 A. From 95 years old to 30, 40 years old.

1 Q. What happened to the young boys?

2 A. They went to the mountains.

3 Q. I see. Now, as you were starting to leave, on the way to Albania,

4 on instructions, did anybody, to your knowledge, try to go back to the

5 village, and if so, what happened to them?

6 A. A few women wanted to go back to the village to sees what was

7 happening. We saw the entire village was on fire. We heard the fire

8 shots, killing people. But they wanted to see with their own eyes what

9 happened. They turned back, but couldn't walk for more than ten metres

10 before the police turned them back, firing in the air, and told them to go

11 back to Albania.

12 Q. Did they tell you anything that they saw?

13 A. No. They didn't see anything, because the police didn't let them

14 go back, enter the village.

15 Q. In your earlier evidence, you said that you could tell -- let me

16 just -- that the entire village was on fire. Could you see that for

17 yourself?

18 A. Yes. Yes. I saw it with my own eyes, all engulfed by fire,

19 flames. Everything was set fire to; the tractors, everything we had.

20 Q. Talking about tractors being on fire, do you remember an incident

21 involving two old handicapped ladies?

22 A. Yes. They burned them in the tractor. One is the wife of Feiz

23 Hoxha, the other of Hazier. We left them there. They couldn't walk.

24 They were left in the tractor and they were burned there.

25 Q. They were alive on the tractor-trailer when you left?

1 A. Yes, they were alive.

2 Q. As you left your village for Albania, did any troops, whether it

3 be police or soldier or any other kind of troops, did any troops escort

4 you along the way?

5 A. All the way we were accompanied by soldiers and policemen,

6 accompanied I can't remember by whom exactly. When we went to Kopiliq, a

7 village there, we were in a line. My sister was holding my son of 6 weeks

8 old. And then they shelled the column and they killed two daughters of my

9 uncle, and that's what happened.

10 Q. All right. So as you're marching along towards Albania, you were

11 being escorted by police and/or infantry troops; is that your evidence?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. And how far did you get before this shelling incident? Had you

14 been walking for far, or long?

15 A. When they started shelling, three sons of mine, they were

16 separated and they went to another village. We were forced to walk from

17 Skenderaj and to walk in the direction of Albania.

18 Q. I understand that you probably aren't familiar with distances, but

19 can you tell us how long you had been walking before the shelling took

20 place?

21 A. From there, we walked for about half an hour.

22 Q. Would you be able to tell us -- did you know the way to Albania?

23 Did you know where to go or did you have a destination in mind?

24 A. No, I didn't know. I'd never known that.

25 Q. All right. Now, this shelling that occurred, could you

1 describe -- you're in a column, I take it, a bunch of people in front of

2 you; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, and we were in the middle of the column.

4 Q. And you're in the middle of the column. Were you carrying anyone

5 at that time?

6 A. I was carrying my son. I was carrying my son and we were walking,

7 and we were shelled. And just before that started to happen, my sister

8 carried my son. We were walking. And when shelling started, the column

9 was split in two, and half of us stopped there.

10 Q. How old was your son that you had been carrying, that your sister

11 then carried for you?

12 A. Six weeks old, my son.

13 Q. Were you breast-feeding at the time?

14 A. Yes, before I was breast-feeding him, but not at that time.

15 Q. No. I appreciate that. So your sister took over carrying your

16 son shortly before the shelling started; is that correct?

17 A. Just before the shelling started.

18 Q. And you've told us that when the shelling started, the column of

19 refugees split into two directions; is that correct?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. Where did you go?

22 A. We stopped there, and the two girls were left there alive, and the

23 police forces turned us back to Broje. That's what we call the village.

24 And we sat there in a meadow.

25 Q. Was your sister in the group with you, your sister and your baby?

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1 A. My sister went towards Tushille village. I didn't see the

2 children from that moment, because my sister left for the village of

3 Tushille.

4 Q. So to summarise: You, your sister, and your three sons took

5 different routes; is that correct? You got separated?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, I'm sorry to have to ask you this, but after that incident,

8 did you ever see your baby again?

9 A. My baby, no, no. It died. It didn't have what to live on. There

10 was nothing to feed him.

11 Q. And you got that information from your sister later on, did you?

12 A. Yes. After the war, my sister told me that the baby died because

13 I couldn't feed her with anything, and nobody could breast-feed her, and

14 so the baby died.

15 Q. Now, after the shelling incident, what happened? I know the troop

16 -- the column split in two. What happened to your group? What can you

17 tell us about the group that you were in?

18 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Ryneveld.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE KWON: Before we go on, could you clarify more about the

21 shelling? Who did the shelling, for example?

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.

23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

24 MR. RYNEVELD:

25 Q. Do you know where the shelling came from? You're walking along

1 and, all of a sudden, something happens. Where was it coming from?

2 A. The shelling came from above. There were some lights, some red

3 lights, and when they fell on us, we were dispersed.

4 Q. Do you know who did the shelling?

5 A. The Serbs, the army, the police.

6 Q. Did you see any tanks or military equipment which would explain

7 where the shelling came from?

8 A. Yes, yes. Further away -- I can't tell the distance, but about

9 half -- half an hour away from those hills, they shelled us because we

10 were going towards Tushille which was a free zone, because we hadn't eaten

11 anything.

12 Q. Now, was the column going in the direction that they had been told

13 at the time the shelling started or was the column going in a different

14 direction than you had been instructed?

15 A. We wanted to go to Tushille, which was less crowded, and we wanted

16 to join some people, and they said it was safe there.

17 Q. Are you talking about before the shelling?

18 A. That is before the shelling. We wanted to join others in Tushille

19 village. And the shelling split the column in two. That's when my sister

20 went away with the two daughters, my two daughters.

21 Q. I understand that, Witness. So this Tushille village that you

22 wanted to go to, was that in a different direction than your Serb

23 escort --

24 A. In the direction of Skenderaj.

25 Q. Is that the direction that your Serb escorts originally wanted you

1 to go or was that in a different direction?

2 A. It was -- it was in the direction where we wanted to go towards

3 because the Serbs wanted us to go towards Albania. But they didn't allow

4 us to go in the direction we wanted to go to and then started shelling.

5 Q. So the effect of the shelling, then, was that you eventually ended

6 up in the direction of Albania instead of the direction that you wanted to

7 go. Is that what you're telling us?

8 A. And we wanted to go towards the direction which we wanted to go

9 to. They started shelling.

10 Q. And as a result of the shelling, did you go in the direction they

11 wanted you to go?

12 A. They turned us back, and they turned us towards the other

13 direction, the direction of Albania.

14 Q. I see. Now, after the shelling stopped, and I -- how long did the

15 shelling go on for?

16 A. It lasted for about 15 minutes. And we were lying flat on the

17 ground for 15 minutes. The shelling didn't stop. And when -- when the

18 shelling stopped, we were taken -- we were forced to go the other

19 direction, not where we wanted to go. And then we stopped at a field to

20 rest.

21 Q. After the shelling stopped, did you see any additional uniformed

22 people arrive?

23 A. A Serb policeman, soldiers.

24 Q. Do you remember what colour or kinds of uniforms they were

25 wearing?

1 A. No, no. No, I can't remember because I was very distracted. All

2 the road -- all along the road there were soldiers and policemen, Serb

3 soldiers and policemen.

4 Q. Did anybody die as a result of that shelling, that you personally

5 know of?

6 A. I didn't know them. There was a woman with two children who died

7 there. I didn't know them.

8 Q. Now, once these additional, I think you called them policemen,

9 arrived, do you remember what they did? Were there any men who had joined

10 your column of refugees?

11 A. Yes. When we were turned to go to the other direction, there were

12 some men, Rexhep Thaci and Haxhi Thaci.

13 Q. Yes. And what, if anything, happened in relation to them?

14 A. I approached them and asked them which direction we would go,

15 because I wanted to join the children and meet them.

16 Q. Yes. Did something happen to those two individuals?

17 A. They wanted to go to Izbica. There we were robbed of everything

18 we had. They started calling names, and they started asking us, "Where is

19 Hashim Thaci?" And they were kicking us. The children started crying,

20 and the men were lying on the ground.

21 Q. What men?

22 A. Haxhi and Rexhep.

23 Q. Did you see if anything happened to those two men?

24 A. Yes. Then I was down in the convoy with my two children in my

25 hand, and then there was a volley of gunfire, and they shot them.

1 Q. When you say, "they shot them," who are you referring to?

2 A. Policemen.

3 Q. What effect did that shooting have on you and the women and

4 children with you, if anything?

5 A. It was more difficult for us. We didn't know where to go. When

6 we saw that they were killed, we didn't know where to go, and we didn't

7 have our children with us. And I don't know how to describe it. It was

8 terrible.

9 Q. Now, you said that they were saying -- sorry. You were robbed of

10 everything, and they started calling you names. What were you robbed of,

11 if anything?

12 A. They took -- they took money from the women. I'm not talking

13 about myself. They looted us, and they insulted us, and then they pointed

14 us in the direction of Kline.

15 Q. In order to obtain money, did -- first of all, did they obtain

16 money?

17 A. Then when they pointed us towards Kline, they -- there was mud and

18 water in a stream in the village of Jashanice and there were only men --

19 there were only women and children there, and there were three tanks there

20 and one was below me and there was one at the front, one at the back, and

21 one in the middle, and they wanted to run us down with tanks.

22 Q. Did they?

23 A. Yes. Yes, on the road. We were down below the stream.

24 Q. All right. When you say, "we were robbed," what do you mean?

25 What was robbed from you?

1 A. There I was, and they were lying down on the road, and we -- and

2 they said to me in Albania, because I don't understand Serbian and they

3 were speaking in Serbian, and then another one spoke Albanian, and then

4 they said -- and they said, "Give me a thousand marks to save my family."

5 And then I had to say -- and then they said, "Five thousand marks to get

6 out of the convoy," but we couldn't do anything. We were just women and

7 children.

8 Q. I see. Now, you've told us about being told to go towards Kline.

9 Did you in fact get to Kline with this convoy? Did you walk towards

10 Kline?

11 A. No. It was in the direction of Kline, and then they went from

12 Broje to Jashanice, and then at Jashanice they were -- wanted to run us

13 down with tanks.

14 Q. Yes. And all along, did you eventually head in the direction of

15 Albania?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Where did you go?

18 A. They took -- wanted 5.000 marks, and they looted us. And from

19 some women they took some -- women, and some from others, and then they

20 forced us to go towards Kline.

21 Q. All right. And was Kline in the direction of Albania at that

22 point or not?

23 A. Yes. Yes, it is. It's on the way to Albania. It's called Kline,

24 Klina e Begut.

25 Q. All right. And once you got to Kline, were you --

1 A. When we got to Kline, then we were forced to go back, because they

2 were burning a mill in Kline. And we were frightened, and we were forced

3 to go back, and they told us to go back and take the children. And then

4 they -- we hadn't gone a hundred metres, and they stopped us and they

5 asked us, "Where are you going?" And we said, "We're going to get our

6 children." And they wouldn't allow us. And then we had to go back to the

7 police station at Kline. And then the column was stopped. And they

8 didn't allow us to go back and get our children. And I went back, and I

9 was going back through Kline, which was in flames, and there was the

10 police station.

11 Q. All right. I understand there was a time of confusion in Kline.

12 Did you eventually go towards another village or another town?

13 A. Yes. Then we went from Kline to Gjakova, and we stayed one night

14 along the road, and they just told us, "Stay there." And then early in

15 the morning, some men from Kline joined us, and they led the convoy. And

16 it was an even longer convoy then, because we were joined by people from

17 Kline. And we walked all day, and towards the evening, one villager from

18 Kraljane gave us a little bit of food because we couldn't go all the way

19 to Albania without eating or drinking anything.

20 Q. Yes. Now, when you say, "They told us to go to Gjakova," who is

21 "they"? Were these still the same Serb escorts you had?

22 A. They were the same Serbs, always the same. Serbian soldiers.

23 They escorted us all the way along the road.

24 Q. Now, en route, did you get a message from someone on behalf of the

25 KLA?

1 A. I don't understand that.

2 Q. Well, let me back up, then. Now, eventually do I understand that

3 you were being escorted to the Djakovica municipality? You're nodding

4 your head.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And while you were en route to the village of -- now, is it

7 Glodjane? Do you know that town, or that village? I may be

8 mispronouncing it. Glodjane?

9 A. They pointed us towards Gjakova, and then we rested two nights in

10 Kraljane, and then we went to a village where we were to be a bit safer,

11 in Glodjane.

12 Q. On the route to Kraljane, did you get a message from anyone,

13 telling you to go in that direction?

14 A. Yes. A villager of Kraljane came out and said, "Go to Kraljane."

15 Q. Did he indicate to you why you should do that or whose message he

16 was delivering?

17 A. He told us to go to Kraljane and then they'd give us bread and to

18 rest a while, because it was -- it would take us a week to get to Albania,

19 and we hadn't had food and drink.

20 Q. Did you know the KLA to be active in that particular area?

21 A. No. No, I didn't know anything about that.

22 Q. What happened when you got to Kraljane?

23 A. When we came to Kraljane, then we ate and drank, and then they

24 forced us to go to Glodjane, and we stayed four days there. And they

25 shelled us -- the village all night and all day.

1 Q. Now, let me see if I understand this. You got a message from a

2 villager on behalf of someone that you had -- that you should go to

3 Kraljane; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This villager was not a Serb uniformed person?

6 A. No, no. He was an Albanian. He wasn't a Serb but an Albanian.

7 Q. All right. So you wanted to go to Kraljane. Do I understand your

8 evidence correctly?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. But you also told us that you were being escorted by Serb soldiers

11 and policemen. Did they also want you to go to Kraljane? Sorry, I need

12 an answer.

13 A. No. They just put us on the road, and when we went to Kraljane,

14 they didn't do anything.

15 Q. They allowed you to go in the direction you wanted to go at that

16 point; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when you got there, Kraljane was being shelled?

19 A. Kraljane was being shelled, and then we were slightly -- we went

20 slightly lower down, to a village called Glodjane.

21 Q. Were you fed in Kraljane?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. Who fed you?

24 A. There were Albanians there, because they still hadn't left their

25 village there. So there were Albanians there, and they fed us.

1 Q. Now, while you were in that village, did any further soldiers or

2 paramilitaries appear with any military vehicles?

3 A. No. We didn't stay long in Kraljane, only two days. And then at

4 Glodjane, we were three days, and there were no soldiers there. And then

5 they shelled Glodjane. And then, early in the morning, they came with

6 tanks, plenty of them, and vehicles, and then we were again shelled while

7 gathered at the church in Glodjane.

8 Q. So this is now in Glodjane. All right. We're no longer in

9 Kraljane --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- we're now in Glodjane. All right.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that's where the additional troops and military vehicles - I

14 think you said lots of tanks - that's where that happened?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I see. And were you given any explanation by these uniformed

17 people as to why they were there?

18 A. No. No. They came and they forced us to go again to Albania.

19 And they said to the people of Glodjane, "You are different. You are from

20 Drenica." Because half the column was from Drenica. And they said we

21 have nothing -- they told us not to get mixed up.

22 Q. So they didn't want the people from your village to mix with the

23 people from Drenica? Is that what you understood them to be saying?

24 A. No, because the people in Glodjane are also Albanians, but they

25 are Catholics. So they were told to go and stay in their own homes.

1 Q. So what happened to the Catholics? Did they go -- continue on

2 with you or did they go somewhere else?

3 A. No, no. They stayed where they were, and they told us to go on

4 the road again and they forced us to go back to Kraljane. And when we

5 were at Kraljane, it was burned, and then they told us to go to Klina e

6 Begut.

7 Q. Just so that we're clear, who is it that are "they" and who is it

8 that is "us" or "we"? I think you said, "They told us." Is this only the

9 group from your village of Izbica?

10 A. No, they didn't -- they didn't know we were from -- just from

11 Izbica. We were from all Drenica and from all the villages around

12 Izbica. They couldn't tell which of us were from which village. We were

13 all from Drenica.

14 Q. But the Catholics had been told to stay home? Is that what you

15 told us?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, when you come to a convenient moment.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. You'll see I'm at the bottom of paragraph

19 16. I want to ask two more questions, and then I propose to continue

20 after lunch, if I may.

21 Q. Now, en route, you've been telling us about all these locations

22 you went to. Did you pass through smaller villages along the way that you

23 may have not known the names of?

24 A. Yes, there were plenty of villages, but I don't know their names.

25 Q. And could you tell what condition they were in as you went

1 through?

2 A. Well, it was dangerous, because people were coming out of

3 Kraljane, 300 people, and then they told us to go back to Kline and I

4 never saw them again. But I saw a man separated from his wife, and he was

5 shot.

6 Q. Now, as you were on this forced march, did you ever try to stop

7 and rest?

8 A. During the day, no. They never allowed us to rest during the

9 day. They told us to keep moving, and there were a lot of vehicles

10 moving, and tanks. But during the night, yes.

11 Q. So during the day, you were not allowed to stop?

12 A. No.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: All right. I believe that might be a convenient

14 moment.

15 JUDGE MAY: Before we adjourn, I want to deal with two

16 administrative matters. The first concerns the video recordings, Exhibits

17 11 and 13 to 16, which were mentioned last week. And it was proposed,

18 with the agreement of the amici, that we should watch those, lasting three

19 hours, twenty minutes, but without commentary, and that we should do so

20 outside Court. The accused has had access to those video recordings, but

21 he objects to their not being shown in public, saying that they are part

22 of the evidence and should be shown in public.

23 We have now considered that objection. We do not consider it to

24 be a valid objection. There's no reason why these exhibits should be

25 shown in public. They are, of course, part of the record, and it's simply

1 a question of when we see them. We have come to the conclusion that it

2 would be convenient for us to watch them in private, which we shall do

3 without taking up valuable court time. However, if on watching them we

4 come to the conclusion that they should be shown in public, we will so

5 order.

6 That is the first matter. The second is this: The accused has

7 asked, because of a family visit on Thursday, the 7th of March, that we

8 sit only in the morning that day. Because of the difficulties with the

9 visa on this occasion, we will exceptionally arrange for the sitting hours

10 to be changed, and we will sit from 9.00 until 1.45 that day, as, in fact,

11 we will be doing for most of the week. However, this is not to be taken

12 as a precedent.

13 We will adjourn now. 2.35.

14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You didn't allow me to say -- to

4 make an observation, actually, with respect to your ruling, your decision,

5 in connection with the videotapes. I should like to make things clear.

6 I don't know what there is on those tapes, but I considered that

7 they should be shown for reasons of principle in public and for only one

8 reason, and that is that the trial is a public trial. Now, if that reason

9 of principle does not stand, then my comment won't stand either. And when

10 I wanted to show my own tapes here and to show them on a video player, I

11 wasn't able to get one or show them, so -- but that's a lesser problem.

12 It is a question of principle. And if there is any evidence to be

13 presented, it should always be presented in public. So that is why I

14 requested that too.

15 And another technical point, all the telephones of my associates

16 that I tried to call up here -- from here yesterday have been

17 disconnected, so that I found it very hard to communicate. I myself am

18 not able to come by concrete information in any other way but through the

19 telephone. So I should like to inform you that if I'm not able to make

20 contact and come into contact with my associates when you are examining

21 the witnesses here, then I shall ask for the cross-examination to be

22 postponed until I am in such a position as to be able to communicate with

23 my associates.

24 That is all. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, as to the first matter you raise

1 concerning the playing of the video, as I said, we had in mind your

2 submission, which was that it should be played in public. For the reasons

3 I've given, we decided against you. We shall look at it in due course,

4 but not in public.

5 As to the other matter concerning the telephones, that is

6 something we'll have to look into. It's also something about which you

7 can address us at the next hearing when we deal with administrative

8 matters.

9 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honours. I'm about to start at

11 paragraph 17 of the summary.

12 Q. Now, Witness, just before the lunch break, you had told us about a

13 somewhat circuitous route that you took to get to the border, and how long

14 would you say that it took you, from the time you left the village of

15 Izbica, to get to the Albanian border?

16 A. About six days.

17 Q. And apart from the one instance you told us that you were fed by

18 the inhabitants, I believe it was of the village of -- I can't remember if

19 it was Glodjane or Kline, were you given food along the way or given

20 opportunities to stop and eat?

21 A. When we arrived in Kline, as I said, I told them, "I can't walk

22 any more. Where are you talking us?" They ridiculed us, and then they

23 gave us a little bread as if to ridicule us further. Then I said, "I

24 can't walk any more. We can't walk any more." And then they turned us in

25 the direction of Gjakova, and we stayed there one night and had food.

1 Q. Who supplied that food?

2 A. The Serb police. They were kind of mocking at us all the time.

3 Q. Along the route, you passed through a number of villages before

4 you got to the checkpoints at Djakovica. What can you tell us what kind

5 of villages those were? Were they Serb villages or mixed villages or

6 Albanian villages? Do you know?

7 A. No, I don't know, because I have never been there before. I never

8 have been there. But I know that we walked all day, and when the night

9 came, we rested a while, while in the day they didn't allow us to sit or

10 [indiscernible]. So I can't remember those villages. I've never seen or

11 been there.

12 Q. Many of the villages that you passed through, were they intact or

13 were they somehow affected?

14 A. They were not intact. Some were burnt, some parts were not burnt,

15 you know.

16 Q. Did you have any identity documents with you when you left your

17 village of Izbica?

18 A. I didn't have anything, because I left everything in my home, and

19 they got burnt.

20 Q. And how about your fellow refugees who were in the convoy? Did

21 some of those have identity documents with them?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And could you tell what happened at any stage in relation to those

24 identity documents?

25 A. When we arrived in Gjakova, on our way to Gjakova, I saw some

1 big -- a place where they -- they put us in a place, in a checkpoint, I

2 think, where they checked for our documents, and they asked us to hand

3 over all our documents, and then when you arrive at the border of Albania,

4 you will see what will happen. So all the refugees that were in the line,

5 you know, threw away -- threw on the ground all the IDs and passports they

6 had on them.

7 Q. Now, how far was Gjakova from the Albanian border at Qafe e

8 Prushit?

9 A. We walked all day.

10 Q. And while you were walking towards the border, did you see any

11 more Serb forces?

12 A. Many. All along the way, non-stop, I saw Serb forces.

13 Q. What were they doing, and how were they in view?

14 A. They told us to go ahead. They showed the way. We didn't dare to

15 speak or do anything. We were tired, walking all day, no food, no drink,

16 nothing at all. We just kept walking.

17 Q. Were these soldiers or these forces on foot or were they in

18 vehicles, or what?

19 A. Some were on foot, some were in trucks, but those who were on foot

20 told us, "If you do not arrive in Albania at 6.00 in the afternoon, we

21 will turn you back from where you came."

22 Q. Did you make it to the border on time?

23 A. Yes, we did.

24 Q. Do you happen to remember the name of the border town that you

25 crossed?

1 A. Kruma.

2 Q. Do you remember the date that you crossed the border?

3 A. No. To tell you the truth, no, I don't.

4 Q. Witness, if you were asked this I'm now asking, "Why did you leave

5 your village?" what would your answer be?

6 A. Because we were driven there by force, by Serb paramilitaries.

7 They forcibly drove us out of our homes.

8 Q. Now, you told us earli