1 Thursday, 25 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness make the declaration.

7 WITNESS: NDREC KONAJ

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd like to take a seat.

12 Yes.

13 Examined by Ms. Romano:

14 Q. Witness, can you please state your full name for the Court,

15 please.

16 A. Yes. My name is Ndrec Konaj.

17 Q. Mr. Konaj, where and when were you born?

18 A. I was born on December 3rd, 1954, at the Novosella e Eperme,

19 Dukagjin.

20 Q. And in which municipality and town did you live?

21 A. The municipality of Gjakove.

22 Q. Can you tell us where it's located, the municipality in Kosovo,

23 and the villages surrounding your town?

24 A. The municipality of Gjakove is about 36 kilometres from Peja,

25 approximately 82 kilometres from Prishtina. The surrounding villages or

1 neighbourhoods are Piskote, Brekoci, Bishtazhini.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. That's enough.

3 A. You're welcome.

4 Q. And what is your profession?

5 A. I work as a building inspector.

6 Q. Mr. Konaj, you were interviewed by members of the Office of the

7 Prosecutor on 19th of April, 1999; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. You were also interviewed on the 12th of June, 2001; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct too.

12 Q. And you gave two statements?

13 A. That's true.

14 Q. You attended a meeting on the 3rd of January this year in Peja,

15 and at that meeting you were provided, by an appointed officer of the

16 Tribunal, you were provided with a version of your statement in the

17 Albanian language; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. And at that meeting, you also had an opportunity to review that

20 statement and confirm that the contents of your two statements were true?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution submits the two statements into

23 evidence.

24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 112, Your Honours.

25 MS. ROMANO: The summary of the witness's testimony is the

1 following: The witness refers to incidents in 1998 when, according to the

2 witness, Serb police damaged, looted two of his houses. On 27 March,

3 1999, the witness was staying at his father's house in

4 Peja town with other relatives and friends. Around 2.00 p.m., 15 masked

5 paramilitaries entered the yard carrying automatic weapons, grenades, and

6 rifles with bayonets. They shot at the house, robbed the witness, and

7 gave the occupants five minutes to leave in the direction of Montenegro.

8 En route, the witness observed military or police at every road

9 junction to prevent deviation from the route. The witness's group was

10 stopped several times. On one occasion, the witness and his uncle were

11 stopped and beaten by a group of nine men with painted faces. On another

12 occasion, the witness was told by a Serb policeman, "There is no place for

13 you to go other than to Montenegro." The Serbian police, army, and the

14 paramilitary troops were located at the entrance of every street to

15 prevent them from going back.

16 On 28 March, 1999, the group was stopped on the outskirts of Peja

17 by mixed Serb forces and were ordered to return to the town centre. There

18 were thousands of people from all over Peja in the centre. About 20

19 trucks and buses were filled with displaced persons a number of times and

20 set off towards Prizren. The witness got on a bus driven by an armed

21 paramilitary. In Prizren, the displaced persons were told to leave the

22 bus and walk to Albania. The driver said, "Go to Albania. This is not

23 your place. This is Great Serbia."

24 Other buses then arrived and took the displaced persons to

25 Vermica, about 7 kilometres to the border with Albania. The witness then

1 walked to the border, and his group was told to throw driver's licences,

2 passports, and all other ID documents into a large box. The witness saw

3 vehicle registration plates in the box as well.

4 That's the summary. No further questions.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Microphone.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. It's all right now.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] How long have you been living in Pec?

9 A. Since 1956.

10 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let's get it put straight. Just a

11 moment, Mr. Milosevic. We'll see what the problem is.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Where were you employed during the time that your statement

14 encompasses, that is to say, at the beginning of 1998 and 1999?

15 A. I was unemployed since 1990.

16 Q. In your statement, you say that the relationships between the

17 Serbs and the Kosovars deteriorated in 1990. Is that right?

18 A. Yes, they were. That is true, yes.

19 Q. Do you know that Kosovo is in Serbia?

20 A. It never has been. It never will be.

21 Q. Do you know that Kosovo is in Serbia today too?

22 A. In your opinion it could be. In ours, no.

23 Q. Why do you say there was a deterioration in the relationships, as

24 you say?

25 A. Because we were ill-treated for years on end. We were -- we were

1 beaten up, attacked in every possible manner.

2 Q. Are you aware of the fact -- do you know how many Serbs left

3 Kosovo since, for example, 1980, up to 1990, when you say the

4 relationships became deteriorated, under pressure and precisely because of

5 that kind of treatment, the treatment that the Serb inhabitants had in

6 Kosovo? Are you aware of that?

7 A. The question is not very clear. No. Do you mean during the war?

8 Q. No, I don't. What I'm asking you is whether you know that since

9 1980, not to go back further in time, do you know how many Serbs left

10 Kosovo under the kind of treatment that you're talking about, but in the

11 opposite direction, the other way around?

12 A. Did I mention ill-treatment directed towards them? Who? I'm

13 not -- I'm not clear. Who ill-treated who?

14 Q. Well, that's why I'm asking you. You mentioned the fact -- a fact

15 that I am challenging. So I am asking you whether you know how many Serbs

16 left before 1990, in the ten-year period from 1980 to 1990, left Kosovo

17 because of the terror the Albanians exerted against them. Do you know

18 that?

19 A. No. This is ridiculous to allege that the Albanians have

20 exercised any kind of terror upon the Serbian population. I'm not aware

21 that this ever occurred. I have no knowledge of this. Even if any

22 individual left, they left out of their own interest, probably to improve

23 their economic situation.

24 Q. So you don't know that these Serbs left these areas, for example,

25 the area of your municipality, the municipality of Pec, too?

1 A. No.

2 Q. And do you know that there are facts and figures about that, books

3 written about it, statistics, individual cases, group cases, and so on and

4 so forth?

5 JUDGE MAY: He said he doesn't know, so there's no point going on

6 about it.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

8 Q. You said that you lived -- in your statement, you say that you

9 lived, after 1990 -- you said: "Our Serb neighbours used to say hello to

10 us. We drank together, had coffee together." So when did that situation

11 change? When did that state of affairs change for the worse? Did it

12 happen at that time?

13 A. On the references to coffee-taking, no, no. This began in 1990,

14 the campaign began, and the worsening of the situation vis-a-vis our

15 neighbours. It is true that we were neighbours. They had their own

16 land. Before 1990, it is true that we used to greet one another. But we

17 were unaware of the intentions that came to pass, that the worst came to

18 pass later.

19 Q. So when did the situation worsen, in fact?

20 A. As of 1990 onwards, and between 1998 and 1999, there was the

21 exodus of the entire population in Kosova at large, and in Peja in

22 particular, and this is the time when their attitude towards us worsened.

23 Q. So that was mid-1998, as you yourself say. So from mid-1998.

24 That's what you said. Is that correct?

25 A. No, not from mid-1998, but in Peja, the situation worsened to the

1 extreme after Loxhe came under attack.

2 Q. So Lodza was the turning point which marked the deterioration in

3 the situation. When did that occur?

4 A. The situation had always been tense, and if you could allow me to

5 take a document out of my own bag...

6 JUDGE MAY: What is the document, Mr. Konaj, that you want to

7 refer to?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My notes, Your Honour. I've got my

9 own notes, things that I've been unable to recall as a result of the

10 terror and mistreatment, which makes one have difficulty remembering

11 things. If you could permit me to consult them, given that the accused

12 wants the date.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. When did you make the note?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the course of time in Kosova,

15 after the war.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On July the 5th, I left my own house

18 in the neighbourhood known as Bellopoje. And on the 6th, in the morning,

19 Loxhe came under attack.

20 As far as I can recall, the criminal Seselj was coming to visit

21 Gorazhdec and one of the vehicles escorting the convoy entered Loxhe and

22 incited the problem that resulted in the killing of a number of

23 civilians. Whilst at 5.45 a.m. on the 6th, Loxhe came under attack by

24 military aircraft.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. And why have you called Seselj a criminal? Do you know him to be

2 a criminal?

3 A. It is very well known that pursuant to their orders and yours,

4 these criminal incidents occurred, these tortures occurred. Excuse me for

5 expressing myself this way but this is the truth.

6 Q. Since that is not true, because how could he order anything, let's

7 move on. You, therefore, marked what you call the attack on Lodza as the

8 turning point in the situation, in the state of affairs in Pec. Am I

9 reading you correctly? It was a turning point for the worse. The

10 situation deteriorated after that; is that right?

11 A. It had been bad all the time, but on this particular day when

12 Loxhe came under attack, the situation became sadder with the

13 ill-treatment and other activities that occurred.

14 Q. All right. As you have made a written statement, I don't see why

15 you have to read your statement again. If you gave the statement, I

16 assume you know what you said in it.

17 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter of comment. The witness is referring

18 to his notes to get the detail.

19 Yes. Can we move on?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just asked for a detail and I got

21 the detail. What he's reading now is not a detail. They are comments.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've got my own statement.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. What did you say?

25 A. And I'm now putting it away.

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1 Q. You gave the statement to the investigators of the Tribunal in

2 April 1999; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So in April 1999, you claim that the situation had worsened

5 approximately 16 months ago, or, rather, that it took place on the first

6 Saturday in the month of July in 1998. That's what it says. "It was the

7 first Saturday in July 1998" is what your statement says.

8 A. Can you please clarify this? It is not very clear.

9 Regarding the city of Peja, this -- we have -- the suggestion has

10 always been worse. But I mentioned earlier, on the 5th of July, when

11 Loxhe came under attack, at that point the entire city became three times

12 more -- three times more worse, as it were, because of the siege of

13 Serbian forces.

14 Q. So according to you, the situation was three times worse because

15 the attack on Lodza, according to what you say. Is that it?

16 A. They came, but as many as three times more reinforcements of

17 Serbian forces. The ill-treatment, beatings, enigmatic killings.

18 Q. Yes. I have heard about those expressions that the other

19 witnesses used too, but what I'm interested in is the facts.

20 Now, do you know - I'm sure you must know as a citizen of Pec -

21 that the attack on Lodza was organised by the leadership of the KLA and

22 that that --

23 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the witness answer.

24 Do you know that this attack was organised by the leadership of

25 the KLA?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's not at all

2 true. It's known very well that police vehicles, as I said before, they

3 escorted Seselj's convoy. And one of these vehicles entered the road at

4 the junction from Gorazhdec that goes to Loxhe, and there they met some

5 young kids who were playing with a ball in the road, and they were

6 witnesses of what happened. And then they maltreated these kids. And

7 Tahir Shalaj was killed on that same day.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. And do you know the name of Tahir Zemaj?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Your Honour, excuse me.

12 Shall I explain more clearly?

13 JUDGE MAY: What's the question, Mr. Milosevic?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "Do you know the name of Tahir

15 Zemaj?"

16 JUDGE MAY: What's the significance of this name?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The significance of this name is

18 that Tahir Zemaj was the chief commander of the units that carried out the

19 attack on Lodza. His deputy was the notorious bandit Ramush

20 Haradinaj and--

21 JUDGE MAY: The witness has said that it was not -- it did not

22 take place in the way that you suggested. So there's no point going on

23 putting things to him.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And do you know that in your sources, the KLA calls the Lodza

1 battle, as they refer to it, as one of the most professional operations

2 carried out by the KLA? Do you know that?

3 A. No, I don't know this.

4 Q. And do you know that the 134th Brigade took part in that battle,

5 precisely according to the information provided by the KLA command? Do

6 you know that?

7 A. No, I don't know about this.

8 JUDGE MAY: This is not part of his statement. It comes in as a

9 result of your cross-examination. We should return to the statement.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, haven't we all heard here that

11 the battle in Lodza was the turning point for the worse, and this is

12 one --

13 JUDGE MAY: We have heard that. It comes in as a result of your

14 cross-examination and you have examined the witness about it. You've put

15 your case to him. It seems to be a waste of the Court's time to go on

16 further. He wasn't there. He's merely telling what he heard. And I

17 suggest we move on.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

19 Q. Since you heard that a battle had taken place, between who did

20 this battle take place in Lodza?

21 A. The Serbian police and army against innocent civilians in the

22 village of Loxhe.

23 Q. And do you know that your own commanders, who are now publicly

24 writing about that battle, speak of --

25 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop this. The witness is merely

1 accounting what he heard. It doesn't assist the Trial Chamber. If it's

2 relevant, you can call evidence about it in due course, but this has gone

3 on for more than 20 minutes. You've only got one hour. You should be

4 concentrating on what's in the statement from now on.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, please bear in mind - and I

6 wish to highlight that - since he said that this was a key issue, a

7 turning point, in terms of the deterioration of the situation, and since

8 this is the most flagrant possible twisting of facts, and there is

9 irrefutable evidence about this, including books published by KLA

10 commanders --

11 JUDGE MAY: This is all argument. The witness has given his

12 evidence. This is what he said is true and what happened. You've had the

13 opportunity to cross-examine him about it. Now it's time to move on to

14 another issue.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Do you know the name of Ramabaja?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And do you know the name of Stojkaj?

19 A. I know that they're from Decan municipality somewhere.

20 Q. And do you know the name of Hadri Djonaj?

21 A. I come from Peja municipality, not from Decan municipality, and I

22 know my own area.

23 Q. I'm talking about Pec; not about who was born in Pec, but who did

24 something in Pec. Do you know the name of Farush Thaci?

25 A. This question is not clear to me.

1 Q. I'm asking you whether you know the name of that man. Do you know

2 that man, Farush Thaci?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And do you know the name of a man called Salih Ceku?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And do you know the name of Rrustem Buci?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And have you heard of Shaban Shala?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What about Hasan Kamaja? Have you heard of him?

11 JUDGE MAY: That's enough of these lists. He doesn't know these

12 people.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These are names of commanders of

14 units of the KLA who at that time, precisely at the time about which this

15 witness has been saying the most incredible things, were attacking Lodza,

16 with major forces, with the intention of --

17 JUDGE MAY: I've told you to move on. Now, unless you've got some

18 different questions for this witness, we'll conclude the examination.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have many other different

20 questions. Don't worry about that. I just have one question, because the

21 witness was a building inspector, he finished school.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Do you know that a book came out published by Mergimi in the year

24 2000 - this is a mere photocopy, though - and the book is called "Thus

25 Spoke Tahir Zemaj: Comments About the War."

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the other names.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Are you aware of this book that you published in 2000?

4 JUDGE MAY: Are you suggesting -- just one moment. Are you

5 suggesting the witness published it?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. No, I'm not saying that. The

7 same people who sent him here published the book in order to portray

8 events in this way.

9 JUDGE MAY: This is a comment.

10 Do you know anything about this book?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that it's been published, but

12 I've never actually seen a copy.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And do you know that in that book is information given by your

15 commanders? And recoilless guns are mentioned there, heavy guns, heavy

16 armaments, all these other things --

17 JUDGE MAY: He doesn't know anything about it, and it's quite

18 wrong to refer to "your commanders," quite wrong. There's no evidence of

19 that. Now, you could put the book in front of us, for what it's worth, in

20 due course, if you wish to. Meanwhile, we should continue with this

21 examination on a different topic.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I highlight this, I mention

23 recoilless guns and heavy weapons that they mention here, precisely

24 because the witness said, only a short while ago, that the army and police

25 clashed with unarmed civilians, and it was numerous units of the KLA that

1 took part in that, and they attacked Lodza. And in that book --

2 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop this examination unless you move to

3 another topic.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So if it is quite clear that the

5 witness is saying a total untruth --

6 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... it's for us to

7 decide. Now, move on.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. It would be the same

9 thing as if you were to decide on whether today is Saturday or not.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. When did you send your older son to Switzerland?

12 A. Before July, sometime towards the beginning of February, as far as

13 I remember.

14 Q. As for the month of July, you marked it as the point when things

15 turned for the worse, and you said that in April, the next year, the

16 following year, after less than ten months, or rather, eight months, you

17 stated that the situation abruptly turned for the worse 16 months prior to

18 that. How is that possible? Is that your statement from April or some

19 later statement?

20 A. Your Honour, the accused is confusing things up. I was very plain

21 in what I said. I said that the attack on Loxhe took place on the 5th of

22 July. On the 6th, there were attacks from the air by helicopter. I sent

23 my son to Switzerland earlier --

24 JUDGE MAY: We have your evidence on that point.

25 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. What's the next question?

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Who is the person called Lorenz Konaj?

3 A. It's my brother.

4 Q. Where does he live?

5 A. Are you really interested? Shall I tell him, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE MAY: No, unless there's any relevance in this. Where did

7 he live in 1998 or 1999? Can you help us with that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. He was in Germany. He

9 was harried there.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. What did he do in relation to the KLA?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know of any activity of his related to the organisation of

14 the KLA and related to his life in Germany?

15 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 MS. ROMANO: Unless there is any relevance of the family of the

18 accused, I think it --

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 MR. KAY: Your Honour, might we raise a point on this? If it's a

21 matter of influence over this particular witness, then it may be a

22 legitimate route of questioning for the accused to go down. That's what

23 we would say on his behalf.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE MAY: We'll allow these questions providing the relevance

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1 can be established.

2 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. You must ask some questions to establish any

3 relevance of this and then you can put directly what you say about the

4 brother.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So my direct question is: Does he know about the participation of

7 his brother in the organisation of the KLA related to his stay in

8 Germany?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. You said in your statement, in relation to this first Saturday in

11 the month, that your wife had a premonition that something bad would

12 happen, and it was according to this premonition of his -- of hers that

13 you sent your mother and two daughters to your father's house, which is in

14 Pec. And after that, you and your wife left your house and also went to

15 your father's house. All of that happened during the same day, if I read

16 it correctly.

17 A. That's not quite right. The truth is as follows: My -- I sent

18 away my wife [as interpreted] and two daughters two months ago to the

19 Karagac neighbourhood, whereas my wife and I stayed where we were in the

20 neighbourhood Bellopoje, until the 5th of July when, because this --

21 because this area had been surrounded and -- and everybody stayed around

22 the cemeteries. On the very same day, on the 5th of July, my wife would

23 not agree to spend the night there and so I insisted that we join the

24 mother and our daughters. On the very next day, we heard of the attack at

25 Loxhe.

1 Q. So this coincides with the information provided here. You left

2 your house just before the attack, practically a few hours before the

3 attack. If you left the previous day and if the attack took place in the

4 early morning, one could say that this was only a few hours prior to the

5 attack; is that right?

6 A. Yes, before, but we were unaware that Loxhe would come under

7 attack. There was no fighting whatsoever. It was -- it was at the

8 insistence of my wife that we left. And we went through the cemeteries of

9 Muslims and the Catholics on the lower part of the cemeteries, which were

10 full of armed civilians and paramilitaries.

11 Q. So you had not been informed that an attack would take place on

12 Lodza. You left prior to the attack because of the premonition of your

13 wife. That is what you've been claiming.

14 A. I was not aware. Let me reiterate. I had no contacts or

15 conversations, because we were staying indoors, in the house.

16 Q. So you did not have any contacts, any talks with anyone from the

17 KLA?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Saqir Studenica, did he tell you who had looted your house and

20 damaged it?

21 A. Saqir Studenica told me that my house had been attacked and that

22 he had sent the corpse of the late Naxhije Hoti there. She's the mother

23 of my neighbour, killed by the police at the Petran object, one of those

24 where vehicles were checked. This happened on the Tuesday, not on July

25 the 5th.

1 She was killed on Monday, and on Tuesday Saqir Studenica told me

2 about it, because police came to the house of my uncle's, looking for my

3 son, and then I went myself there.

4 Q. And why did the police come to your uncle's place to look for his

5 sons if they were living at your address?

6 A. That woman who was killed and sent into the balcony of my house,

7 it was alleged that my -- "Your son has killed a policeman." My uncle

8 emerged to say that is not true, because he has not been here for a long

9 while. And so they forced my uncle to go and identify the victim.

10 Q. How come your son was suspected of having killed that woman and he

11 was not anywhere nearby?

12 A. The accused should ask the police about that, because that's what

13 they said.

14 Q. As far as I understand this, the police was acting upon the

15 instructions of the investigating judge in the course of the investigation

16 of the killing of this woman, and your son was a suspect. Are you aware

17 of that or not?

18 JUDGE MAY: You needn't answer that.

19 Mr. Milosevic, you've spent three-quarters of an hour dealing with

20 events in July 1998 which are of peripheral relevance to this witness's

21 evidence. If you wish to challenge his account, his substantial account

22 of events in March 1999, you should do so in the quarter of an hour

23 remaining to you for examination.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that there is no

25 need for me to repeat that I absolutely contest everything that this

1 witness has said, just like other witnesses who are not telling the

2 truth. From the very beginning of these hearings here --

3 JUDGE MAY: No need to make a speech about it, but if you want to

4 ask him about what happened in March, you should do so now.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The second thing I wish to have

6 clarified is the following: I assume that it is not forbidden to have me

7 question one witness for a shorter period of time and another witness for

8 a longer period of time but if it all adds up to the amount of time

9 allocated to me. I hope that this is something that you won't mind.

10 JUDGE MAY: It is something we will take into account, but the

11 normal rule would be a one-hour maximum.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You planned one hour, if that's the

13 maximum, and then you planned for four 92 bis witnesses to be heard today;

14 is that right?

15 JUDGE MAY: There is no plan as to how many witnesses there should

16 be. But let us move on.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I was thinking that within

18 this time that you have allocated to me, I should economise in a more

19 rational way, but all right.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Tell me, did your sons have a criminal record on the territory of

22 the SFRY, the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

23 JUDGE MAY: That's not a relevant question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never. Never.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Tell me, then, why did the police take your uncle Anton Konaj on

2 that day to your house?

3 A. They asked the uncle to go and identify the corpse that they had

4 placed in the balcony of my own house.

5 Q. Since you had heard that your house had been damaged and looted,

6 why did you go to your uncle's first and then only to the police station

7 so that you would say what was going on, as you had put it?

8 A. Not on what had happened, because the police had come into the

9 house at daylight and done what they did. This is not true. I went to my

10 own house to inquire about what the police were about, because the police

11 were unable to get in contact with me. They got in contact with Shaqir

12 Studenica who came to me, and both of us went to the house.

13 Upon arrival, my uncle told me that if I did not go to the police,

14 they were bound to come again at any time; at night, in the morning. And

15 so I decided to go and report at the police station. My uncle came with

16 me.

17 Upon arriving there, one of the policemen said there was no need,

18 because we are aware who did this, and you should not go to your own

19 properties. And at that moment the uncle came, asked, "How about our own

20 houses?" And at that moment, the policeman insulted him, and then I took

21 my uncle and both of us left.

22 Q. And how did the policeman attack him?

23 A. He insulted him, basically, on his mother's name.

24 Q. So he cursed him, he swore at him?

25 A. Yes. Yes. He said, "'F' your Albanian mother," and then at that

1 moment I just took my own uncle and went out.

2 Q. And when did you leave Kosovo to go to Montenegro, actually?

3 A. In 1998, I left Kosova twice. That is to say, on the 9th or the

4 10th, on a Friday, in the morning, before leaving as a result of police

5 patrols coming to inquire about us at my father's, before departing for

6 Montenegro, my wife and me went to the graveyard, where a neighbour said,

7 "Do not go to your own houses." And at that moment my wife, with the

8 neighbour's wife, went to a different house, where a Macedonian married to

9 a Serb lived, and she escorted them to my own house just to be able to see

10 whether the corpse was still in the balcony.

11 Upon arriving there, they emerged from the windows, asked, "Where

12 are you heading to?" And she said, "To my own house." And then she went

13 in and saw everything that had been demolished, walls full of graffiti:

14 "Welcome back," "Serbia reaches up to Tirana," and so on and so forth.

15 At that point, we departed for Montenegro.

16 Q. And you say that before you left, your house was taken over by

17 snipers?

18 A. Yes, it is true. The other two were demolished and destroyed, and

19 the Court has got photographs of it. They were one-storey buildings,

20 whilst the unfinished, new houses were the locations where the snipers

21 were positioned, not only these two houses but another three or four in

22 that very same neighbourhood, and they had an overview over the whole

23 territory of Loxhe and Peja.

24 Q. And who were those people in your house, the snipers who took over

25 your house? Who were they?

1 A. We were not in a position to go and see who they were, because had

2 we encountered them, we don't know what the end result would have been.

3 They were called Frenki.

4 Q. And did you say a moment ago that your wife just found graffiti

5 written up on the walls of your house? You were talking about your own

6 house, or did I misunderstand you?

7 A. The graffiti on the walls and the doors of the house were in

8 Serbo-Croatian. It is very clear from the photographs. The Serbian

9 police and the army, whoever was there, had written them. I wasn't there

10 to verify who, which one of the parties did that, but it was very clear

11 what was written: "From here to Tirana, it's Serbia," "This is Serbia,"

12 "We'll be back."

13 Q. "We'll be back." Well, what does that mean, "We'll be back"? It

14 means that somebody had written that who had left the place.

15 JUDGE MAY: Not for the witness to speculate as to what the

16 meaning of graffiti is.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. On the occasion, did you see a lot of houses that were burnt,

19 damaged, from the effects of -- in that part of Lodza?

20 A. On the 6th of July, we were only able to see things from a

21 distance, from afar, from my father's. We were only to see smoke, and

22 smoke specks were reaching up the city, because the place had come under

23 attack by military aircraft. And I don't know why you ask this question,

24 because a number of houses must have been burnt. Loxhe was completely

25 flattened.

1 Q. You used the same expression that was used by these commanders,

2 KLA commanders here, because they said that they ordered everything to be

3 flattened to the ground and set fire to, in this book here.

4 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter of comment.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Well, I'm asking him whether there is any link and relevance, that

7 is to say, that you're using the same expression that they used in the

8 book, "flattened."

9 A. Helicopters and military aircraft with Serbian insignia. Who

10 else? Who else could have procured that, apart from your own army and the

11 police who bombed them that day, who bombed the entire village?

12 Q. And those commanders of yours write and say that their fighters in

13 the battle with the Serb forces did that. That's what they say.

14 JUDGE MAY: You have insisted on continuing a line of

15 cross-examination which you were told was of little relevance, and as a

16 result, I'm bringing this cross-examination to an end. You're continually

17 reverting to the same point in your case.

18 Now, have the amici any questions?

19 No, no more questions. No.

20 Have the amici any questions?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have 50 more questions for

22 this man.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

24 questions for this witness.

25 JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?

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1 MS. ROMANO: No, Your Honour. It's just one matter. If the Court

2 needs the photos that the witness is referring to -- the Prosecution

3 didn't want to submit the photos because they are outside of the period of

4 the indictment, but for clarification of the graffiti, if the Court needs,

5 we'll have it.

6 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much.

7 And thank you for bringing them, Mr. Konaj, but we've heard the

8 evidence, and it is more than sufficient. Thank you for coming. You're

9 free to go now.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, before we bring the other witness, I

13 just would like to clarify one matter. I wanted to let the Court know

14 that one of the witnesses, the third one, Mahmut Halimi, he had to be

15 taken to the hospital for an exam. So right now, during the morning, he

16 is in the hospital.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

18 MS. ROMANO: Sorry. I've just been informed that he arrived from

19 the hospital, so we won't have to change the order of the witness. Sorry

20 about that, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MAY: Who is the next witness?

22 MS. ROMANO: It's Edison Zatriqi.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Prosecutor kindly provide a resume to

24 the interpreters, please.

25 MS. ROMANO: Yes, I will take care of that.

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

3 WITNESS: EDISON ZATRIQI

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

8 Yes.

9 Examined by Ms. Romano:

10 Q. Witness, can you please state your full name to the Court.

11 A. My name is Edison Zatriqi.

12 Q. Where and when were you born?

13 A. I was born on 5th of December, 1956, in Peja.

14 Q. In which municipality is Peja located?

15 A. Peja is a municipality in itself.

16 Q. And can you describe the villages surrounding Peja?

17 A. There are a lot of villages in Peja municipality. There is Loxhe,

18 Rahociq, and then Cisk [phoen], Pavlani, Radafc.

19 Q. Thank you. What is your profession?

20 A. At the moment, I am a driver for the regional office of the OSCE

21 in Peja.

22 Q. And you are an Albanian?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, you were interviewed by members of the Office of the

25 Prosecutor on the 20th of June, 2001; is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you give a statement at that time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the 29th of January this year, you attended a meeting in Peja

5 before members of the Office of the Prosecutor and an appointed officer of

6 the Tribunal, and at that meeting you were provided with an Albanian copy

7 of your statement; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You reviewed your statement, and you also made an addendum to

10 correct minor mistakes from your first statement; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's right. I corrected the errors at that time, and they

12 were translation mistakes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. ROMANO: The summary of the witness's testimony is the

15 following: The witness is a lifelong resident of Peja and was a director

16 of a coach company named Flamingo Tours, which owned three coaches.

17 On 23 March 1999, the witness was ordered to the company yard by

18 Serb police who took away the three coaches. When the witness asked for

19 documentary confirmation, one of the policemen pointed his gun at the

20 witness and threatened him. He did not see the vehicles again until he

21 returned to Peja after the armed conflict. The witness subsequently found

22 out that his buses had been used to transport Kosovo Albanians out of

23 Peja.

24 The witness also describes that on 27 March 1999, he was in his

25 house when he saw Serb military firing shells from the hospital yard and

1 secondary school towards the area of Kapeshnica. The witness moved to the

2 home of a relative in another neighbourhood.

3 The following day, 28th of March, the witness and his family drove

4 to Rozaje, Montenegro, in a long convoy of vehicles. En route, they

5 passed armed police and civilians who were directing them. The witness

6 left Kosovo as he feared for his safety and that of his family.

7 He returned to Peja on 26 July 1999 to find his home, business

8 offices, and coaches completely burnt out.

9 This is the summary. No further questions.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The statement should be exhibited.

11 MS. ROMANO: Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honour. We submit the

12 statements.

13 THE REGISTRAR: It is Exhibit 113, Your Honours.

14 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused, please.

17 Microphone.

18 JUDGE MAY: Microphone.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused speak into the microphone,

20 please. We did not hear the beginning.

21 JUDGE MAY: Can you start again? The interpreters didn't hear the

22 beginning.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Would the accused please speak into the

24 microphone.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

1 Q. [Interpretation] As you spent your whole life in Pec and that you

2 dealt in the field of transport; that is to say, you communicated a great

3 deal in that environment. You went to and fro. Can we assume that you

4 are well acquainted with the situation in Pec and that you were well

5 acquainted with the situation in Pec prior to the war?

6 A. It's true that I've spent all my life in Peja, but I haven't

7 always been involved in transport. I became involved in transport after I

8 was dismissed from the Ljubljana bank from where I was dispensed in 1991,

9 and then I started as a driver.

10 It is true that I travelled a lot, around a large part of the

11 Balkans apart -- as far as Austria, Italy, and so on.

12 Q. The point of my question was to say that you were well acquainted

13 with the situation and circumstances in Pec and as they were just before

14 the war; is that right?

15 A. Yes. Relatively well. I'm relatively well-informed.

16 Q. Yes. And the fact that before working in transport you worked in

17 the Slovenia bank was also a job which meant communicating with people and

18 learning quite a bit in the process; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's true.

20 Q. What were, during those pre-war years, the relationships in Pec

21 like? Can you tell us briefly in one or two sentences? Describe what the

22 relationships were like.

23 A. I can answer, but you must make clear in which period of time,

24 whether it's before you came to power or afterwards.

25 Q. I'm talking about the period just before the war. Now, you can

1 talk about whatever period you like, but what I'm asking you is just

2 before the war, the period just prior to the war, which means 1998, 1999,

3 to be more specific.

4 A. Even though this period was a very difficult one because our

5 movements were very restricted at this time, relations between the

6 Albanians and the Serbs were very chilly. They were especially chilly

7 after the mysterious murders that started in Peja in 1998 with the murder

8 of the Gjuka brothers, the murder of Dr. Ceku, the murder of Dr. Xhevad

9 Gashi, and of Emin Basha. This led to relations cooling considerably.

10 Q. Do you know who killed these Albanians, the Albanians that you've

11 just mentioned?

12 A. In this period, particularly in Peja, this was an open secret.

13 These murders were directed and carried out by a notorious organisation

14 called the Black Hand, which, particularly at dusk and at dawn, it

15 kidnapped Albanians that were on the streets accidently and then nothing

16 more was heard of them. And they may well -- they were often found the

17 next day, dead.

18 Q. I don't know which Black Hand organisation you're talking about.

19 We know about one organisation called Crna Ruka, or Black Hand, which

20 dates back a hundred years. And that one ceased to exist a long time

21 ago. It has joined the rank of history.

22 So what Black Hand are you talking about?

23 A. I don't know anything about the Black Hand organisation which was

24 formed 120 years ago, but I know that it continued its work in Peja, and

25 its members were regular policemen who during the day did police work and

1 during the night committed cruel murders in our city.

2 Q. And what is it that you're looking for in the papers you have in

3 front of you? Are you looking for the Black Hand, perhaps?

4 A. No. Fortunately, I did not experience the work of the Black Hand

5 in Peja before the war.

6 Q. Well, do tell us, then, please. Do tell us, then, please, at

7 least who told you about this Black Hand.

8 A. There was a lot of talk about the Black Hand in Peja at that time,

9 and I can say I've got a few members of this organisation here in my

10 notes, and they included my neighbours. And as I said before, there was a

11 lot of talk about this organisation in our city.

12 JUDGE MAY: Just help with us this, Mr. Zatriqi: What are the

13 notes which you have in front of you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These notes that I have are about

15 the period before the war and the moment of my deportation along with my

16 fellow citizens.

17 JUDGE MAY: And when did you make the notes?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I made these notes at the time when

19 these events happened. All the notes I had, I put into a computer and

20 then printed them out.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 MR. KAY: Your Honour, might I assist the Court that the notes

24 there look handwritten to me, and on the top of the page. We seem to be

25 having a succession of witnesses now bringing notes into the courtroom,

1 and one really questions whether that is desirable, given the fact that

2 this is cross-examination by the accused at this stage, the witnesses have

3 their statement produced as exhibits, a summary given to the Court, and it

4 might be more helpful to the proceedings if they just answered the

5 questions unaided rather than referring to notes that may well have a

6 different history and background that could cloud the issues.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay, this would meet your requirement of

8 contemporaneity.

9 MR. KAY: We haven't really gone into this in great detail with

10 the witness, as to when, and scrutinised the document and questioned him

11 upon it as to when it actually arose and whether matters were fresh in his

12 mind at the time. I take Your Honour's point that it well may be an issue

13 of contemporaneity here. Notes, of course, can have a long period of time

14 to justify contemporaneity. It's the issue, really, with which I raise

15 the matter to the Court, because it may be unhelpful to the evidence if

16 such material is going to be relied upon.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I mention that, Mr. Kay, because even when the

18 notes do not meet that requirement, with which you're familiar in your

19 system, we sometimes allow witnesses to refresh their memories from notes

20 which are made even subsequent to the event, because ultimately we have to

21 assess the weight that is to be given to the evidence. But I think we'll

22 consult on this.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zatriqi, we will allow you to refer to your notes,

25 but if you can, give your evidence without reference to them, because it's

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1 your evidence we want, not what's written in your notes. But if you need

2 to refresh your memory on a particular point, you can do so.

3 And Ms. Romano, as far as the witnesses are concerned, perhaps the

4 better course would be, in future, that if they want to refer to their

5 notes particularly, then they can ask permission to do so, if they've made

6 notes and brought them along. But on the whole, the witnesses, of course,

7 should give evidence without notes, but simply giving it. So if the

8 Prosecution would take note of that, and in future, if they want to, they

9 perhaps should mention it.

10 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, I just want to clarify that when they

11 come to The Hague, they come with several material accompanied, and the

12 instruction of the Prosecution is in the same lines, that what is

13 important is their evidence. But sometimes, you know, they just come to

14 the Court because they feel afraid of forgetting. It's more of a helpful

15 tool.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, if they want --

17 MS. ROMANO: I will take care.

18 JUDGE MAY: If they want to provide it - if they were made roughly

19 at the time - if they want to refer to it, they can, but they should ask.

20 MS. ROMANO: We'll take care of that.

21 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. It's past the time.

22 Mr. Zatriqi, we're going to adjourn for half an hour. During the

23 adjournment, please remember not to speak to anybody about your evidence

24 until it's over, and that does include members of the Prosecution team.

25 We'll adjourn for half an hour.

1 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

4 THE ACCUSED [Interpretation] Since you took a break after you

5 conferred about the notes, I would just wish to state that nowhere in the

6 witness's statement, the two written statements he gave, has it been said

7 that he used notes while giving his statement. If he didn't do it then, I

8 don't understand why he would do it now. That goes for other witnesses as

9 well.

10 JUDGE MAY: If you want to ask him about it, you can.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am stating that in the statement,

12 there is no mention of that, because I assume that if the witness had

13 resorted to notes while giving his statement, it would have to be noted by

14 your official. All right.

15 JUDGE MAY: Let's move on.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Yes. So you spoke of the atmosphere, the atmosphere that was

18 hampered by crimes. You mentioned some unresolved killings, murders. My

19 question is: Do you know that these killings were committed by the KLA?

20 A. No. You are wrong. These were not committed by the KLA.

21 Q. How come you know that it wasn't the KLA that did it when you say,

22 no, that it wasn't the KLA? That means that you know that they didn't do

23 it.

24 A. First, don't interrupt me but listen to me. Listen to my answers

25 to the end.

1 JUDGE MAY: Now, listen, Mr. Zatriqi. You must remember you're in

2 a court. And just answer the questions, if you please.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is as I said before, that

4 it was an open secret in Peja, and we knew that this organisation was

5 working in Peja in 1998 and 1999. And at this time, we didn't even dare

6 to go out of our houses. Or when we went out, we did so for very short

7 periods.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. And do you know that this rumour about the alleged Black Hand was

10 precisely launched by the KLA?

11 JUDGE MAY: We are really getting a very long way from this case,

12 particularly talking about rumour and the like. Now, can we move on to

13 something which is more relevant?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I refer to rumours because the

15 witness spoke about them. Now let us go on.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You knew people who were in top positions in Pec. Were there many

18 Albanians in top positions in Pec?

19 A. From the time when you came into power, you could number them on

20 the fingers of your hand.

21 Q. All right. I'm asking you, from that period onwards and not only

22 from that period onwards, I'm asking you about 1998 and 1999, do you know

23 Albanians in Pec who were in top positions, who held various offices in

24 government in Pec? Just say yes or no in order to save time.

25 A. In this period 1998, 1999, I don't know of anybody who had a

1 significant position in Peja.

2 Q. Have you heard of the name of Xhafer Gjuka?

3 A. Yes. He was my physical education teacher at grammar school in

4 Peja.

5 Q. Was he head of social services in the municipality of Pec and

6 also, later on, a member of the provisional council of Kosovo and

7 Metohija?

8 A. I didn't know about Xhafer Gjuka's position, but I know that he

9 was involved in a party called JUL or something like that, but I don't

10 know what his position was.

11 Q. He was a member of the leadership of the Yugoslav left, but he

12 held these positions. So you do not know that he was a member of the

13 provisional council and also that he was head of social services in Pec?

14 A. I didn't know that.

15 Q. And do you know of another Albanian, Deme Muhaj, who was deputy

16 head of state security in Pec? Do you know him?

17 A. I knew him as a person, but you've got his surname wrong. It's

18 not Muhaj, but Mujaj.

19 Q. I'm not quite certain, when I read an Albanian name, whether I've

20 pronounced it accurately, but it's important that we have identified him.

21 Do you know of Shaqir Nikqi, Shaqir Nikqi, who was a misdemeanours judge

22 in Pec?

23 A. No, I didn't know him. This is the first time I've heard his

24 name.

25 Q. And do you know Mazllum Avdyli? Who is Mazllum Avdyli?

1 A. I don't remember him.

2 Q. Principal of the school in Pec. And do you know who is Rizah

3 Demaj, principal of the primary school?

4 A. Tell me which primary school, because I don't remember this name.

5 Q. The primary school in Rogovo, near Pec.

6 A. No, I don't remember him. I don't know him.

7 Q. Since you were involved in business, you probably know the name of

8 Fatmir Gashi. He was deputy director of the SDK, the public accounting

9 service in Pec.

10 A. Yes, I know Fatmir Gashi personally. He was a colleague of mine

11 when we worked in the bank. And there was not only Fatmir, but there were

12 many others in the social accounting service.

13 Q. Also Albanians; right?

14 A. I don't understand this comment.

15 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. What is the relevance of all this?

16 What this witness said in his evidence, and the significance of it, is

17 that he was director of a coach company, the coaches of which were taken

18 from him and used, the Prosecution say, to deport refugees; and that he

19 was himself, in March of 1999, when he was in Pec, he was there when there

20 was shelling, and he left in his family car and went to Montenegro. Now,

21 that's what his evidence is about. You're trying to extend it to matters

22 which seem to me, speaking for myself, to be totally irrelevant. What's

23 the relevance of the fact that, even if so, that there may have been some

24 Albanians in some positions in Pec at the time?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the relevance is in the fact

1 that the witness has been claiming that Albanians were in high positions

2 earlier on and that later on their number was a single-digit one. And

3 then also he said just before the war, in 1998, 1999, there weren't any in

4 high positions that he knew of. I have here a list of a great many

5 Albanians who held very significant positions in Pec. He was a director

6 of a company. Pec is not New York City, so he would have to know all

7 these Albanians. The question has to do with the credibility of his

8 statement. When the witness says that there weren't any Albanians in high

9 positions and when he is shown these facts, he would have to admit that,

10 because it was not a single-digit number, it was a double-digit number,

11 and even more than that, including one Albanian, as you heard, who was a

12 member of the government. That's very important here, because the

13 impression is being created that the Albanians had no rights whatsoever.

14 And we see here that in a big town, Pec, a large number of Albanians held

15 very important positions, public offices, administrative jobs, et cetera.

16 That is why it is relevant. If you claim that all of this is irrelevant,

17 well --

18 JUDGE MAY: Even if you were right about that, this Court is

19 concerned with displacement and killings in 1999. Now, some evidence of

20 events before then may of course be relevant, but these seem to me matters

21 of not a great deal of significance, and a lot of the Court's time is

22 being taken up with them, the case of the last witness and now here again

23 with this one. If you've got something to challenge about what the

24 witness said happened in his statement, then you should put it.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the relevance of these

1 questions is also in the fact that these facts fully bring under a

2 question mark the stories about deportations, because these persons in

3 high positions -- I mean, had there been any deportations, these persons

4 in high offices would have had to be engaged, involved in these

5 deportations because they held such important positions. And who would

6 believe that, that Albanians who are part of government in a municipality

7 would organise deportations of Albanians, even if it were to be assumed

8 that the Serbs wanted to do that, which is also not true.

9 JUDGE MAY: Do you challenge the way in which this witness has

10 given an account of leaving for Macedonia? If so, you should put it. And

11 do you challenge that his vehicles were sequestrated? Do you challenge

12 that? If so, you should put it to him. That's the matters with which he

13 can deal and those are the matters which are relevant.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, isn't it clear that I'm

15 challenging it? And I hope that if you carefully read both of his witness

16 statements, you will also be perfectly clear that his very statements

17 challenge that. But we'll show that. Please just tell me how far time

18 you're giving me for this witness so that I could cut my questions short,

19 because obviously I will not be in a position to put all the questions I

20 have for him.

21 JUDGE MAY: You have the usual time for the witness, and so far

22 you've taken up, I should think, 20 minutes of it.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. So I have another 40

24 minutes for him?

25 JUDGE MAY: Something of that order, yes.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. That is to say, until

2 12.30.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Then I shall briefly scan all of this, and then you're going to

5 tell me whether you know any of these people. Do you know the names of

6 Skender Nuro, director of the company called Zitopromet; Besim Haska,

7 deputy head of the sales inspection in the district; Muhammed Corkadiu,

8 who was president of the municipality of Pec and then head of the planning

9 and analysis department in Pec; Skender Hajdini, head of the personnel

10 department in Pec, that is to say, the person who admitted officials for

11 work and released them; Dr. Drita, who was head of a ward; Fatmir

12 Kurmehaj, also a director of the hospital --

13 JUDGE MAY: Stop.

14 Mr. Zatriqi, what is being suggested is that there were Albanians

15 who were in important positions in Pec. Now, can you help us about that

16 or not?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. All the names mentioned by the

18 accused are people known to me, but I must say these positions cannot be

19 compared with the position of Fatmir Gashi, who is an able economist.

20 There was no way of comparing this with the position of Xhafer Gjuka,

21 because these are absolute opposites. And I don't know much about the

22 inner workings of the municipality because I didn't have much dealings

23 with it.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I don't understand the explanation of these opposites. Xhafer

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1 Gjuka, isn't he an Albanian too?

2 A. Xhafer Gjuka is an Albanian.

3 Q. He was a member of the provisional government of Kosovo. So why

4 would this be in opposition to the other Albanian who was director of the

5 SDK?

6 A. I wasn't aware of Xhafer Gjuka's position, but I didn't know he

7 had such a high position. I knew him as a deputy director in the public

8 accounting service.

9 Q. All right. Tell me, then, all these Albanians whose names I've

10 read out to you, did you know all of them?

11 A. Not all of them. Some of them I did know but as citizens of Peja,

12 as faces. Some of them I knew.

13 Q. Are you trying to say that you didn't know what they did? You

14 don't know what positions they held? Is that your assertion?

15 A. No, I didn't know what jobs they had.

16 Q. All right. I don't want to waste much time. I'm just going to

17 read ten more names of Albanians to you so that you tell me whether you

18 know them. Dr. Midhat Jakupi, head of the orthopaedics department of the

19 city hospital; Ojdaj [phoen] Pepa, the secretary of --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please slow down for the

21 interpreters.

22 JUDGE MAY: Slow down, please.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Adem Grapci, municipal -- Judge of the municipal court in Pec;

25 Shaban Ukaj, coordinator for education in Pec. Claims were always made

1 that Albanians were not being educated, but even the head of education in

2 Pec was an Albanian. Sali Dionka, director of the cooperative in Kucica.

3 Not to mention all of them. There are five directors of cooperatives in

4 villages around Pec, and all of them are Albanians.

5 At the head of the military department in Pec was also an

6 Albanian. That is to say, the lists of military conscripts, call-up

7 papers were sent by Hatixhe Berisha, Ekrem Zara, inspector --

8 JUDGE MAY: Enough. The witness cannot begin to take all this

9 in.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking him --

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zatriqi, you've been asked about a list of names.

12 Can you help about those or not?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some of them I know, but I can't

14 know who was in what position. For instance, manager of a cooperative. I

15 was involved in transport and had nothing to do with agriculture. And he

16 could read out a lot of other names, but I wouldn't know what positions

17 they had.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right. Do you know of Hatixhe Berisha at least, the military

20 department in Pec? That is to say, military conscripts, their lists,

21 call-up polices for the army, et cetera. He was an ethnic Albanian. Do

22 you know of that?

23 A. No. I don't know anything about him. I completed my military

24 service a long time ago, and I don't know anything about All People's

25 Defence.

1 Q. All right. You were involved in transportation. Do you know the

2 name of Fetih Hoti and Ekrem Zara? Both of them worked precisely as

3 inspectors for transportation in the municipality of Pec. That is to say,

4 your own line of work. Also Albanians.

5 A. Yes, I know him personally. And I know that his authorities were

6 very restricted. He had been inspector for years. And there was another

7 inspector called Antic. And Fetih Hoti had very limited

8 responsibilities.

9 Q. All right. As far as responsibilities are concerned, that's a

10 very relative question. I can't really read all this out to you because

11 it would be pointless, but so far I have read out at least 30 names to you

12 or, rather, positions that were held by Albanians. Doesn't it seem to you

13 that with that structure of positions that were held by Albanians, some

14 government can be involved in the organisation of deportations of

15 Albanians from Pec?

16 JUDGE MAY: It's not a matter for the witness. It's a matter that

17 we'll have to decide.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Do you remember that in the villages around Pec there were local

20 policemen, precisely in Albanian villages, that were elected by the

21 citizens themselves, the local villagers, and who held these positions of

22 local policemen who wore uniforms and who carried weapons? They were

23 selected by the villagers in those respective villages? Do you remember

24 that?

25 A. No. I do not remember this, because in Peja and its environs, I

1 have never come across an Albanian policeman, and I've had contacts with

2 loads of people.

3 Q. And do you remember the name of Haxha Berisha from the village of

4 Krusevac?

5 A. No, I cannot remember this name.

6 Q. He was a local policeman, an Albanian in the village of Krusevac.

7 And what about Gaci Kelmendi? Have you heard of that name?

8 A. No. I have not heard of any name of anybody who, as you allege,

9 was a policeman.

10 Q. He was in the village of Kosoric. What about the name of

11 Bushataj? Bushataj, a local policeman for the Llubeniq and Rausic

12 villages which are right by Pec? He was killed by members of the KLA

13 precisely because he was a policeman. Do you know of that event?

14 A. No. I haven't heard of that.

15 Q. What about a policeman named Nikoliqi for the Dragovan, Milovanic,

16 and Pocesje villages? Do you know about that?

17 A. No. I have not known him. And as you very well know, I lived in

18 Peja, and during 1998, 1999, I did not go through these villages in

19 particular. These names are not known to me.

20 Q. As you were just in Pec, do you know of a single Serb civilian, a

21 policeman or soldier during this period of time, let's say October 1998

22 and the 24th of March, 1999, was killed or abducted by the KLA from the

23 Pec area?

24 A. No, I haven't heard. I haven't heard of that at all.

25 Q. Have you heard of the KLA at all? Did you hear of it while you

1 were in Pec at all?

2 A. Yes, a lot, and I am proud of it.

3 Q. All right. You've given your answer. Now, do you know about the

4 killing -- the killing of children in the Panda Bar in Pec? A boy was

5 killed. He was -- boys were killed, the ages of 17 to 19.

6 A. Yes, I've heard of this incident. And this is one of the

7 questionable murders that occurred in my city.

8 JUDGE MAY: Do you know anything yourself about it directly or is

9 it merely things that you've heard?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are things that were spoken

11 about around Peja and which I've heard of. Can I continue?

12 JUDGE MAY: What's the next question?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Have you heard of Sadriu Komoni?

16 A. No. I don't know him, and I can't remember this name.

17 Q. And do you know what his relations were with the Serbs?

18 A. In my answer, I said that I did not know this person, hence

19 there's no way of knowing what kind of relations he had with the Serbs.

20 Q. And do you know of an Albanian by the name of Thaci Uka?

21 A. No. Haven't heard -- haven't heard of him.

22 Q. And do you know of an Albanian by the name of Bushati Jahu?

23 A. No. I haven't known him.

24 Q. And have you at least heard that Bushati Jahu, as a member of the

25 KLA, killed Thaci Uka? That is something that you must have heard about

1 in Pec.

2 JUDGE MAY: He says he doesn't know him. He doesn't know about

3 these kind of matters. Can we move on to something more relevant?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, everybody in Pec knows what

5 the other person is having for lunch, is cooking for lunch, let alone when

6 somebody kills somebody.

7 JUDGE MAY: Is that true of Pec, or Peja?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not true at all, because

9 Peja is not as small a place as the accused is trying to portray it. In

10 addition to that, we must take into account the restricted movement and

11 the impossibility of having information on everything that is being

12 alleged here.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You claim that there was restricted movement in Pec when these

15 events occurred. Is that right?

16 A. Yes. That is true. We -- our movement was always restricted to

17 three to four hours per day. The rest of the days we stayed indoors.

18 At a certain point in time, we were even unable to venture onto

19 the balcony of my own house, because one of our neighbours advised me to

20 stay indoors, given that snipers were positioned all around and they could

21 put my life in danger. Therefore, I can assert here that our movements

22 were extremely restricted.

23 Q. So your movements were restricted by the fact that your neighbour

24 told you that it was dangerous, not through somebody actually having

25 prevented you from moving around; is that correct? Have I understood you

1 correctly? Yes or no.

2 A. No, I think you got me wrong. What I said -- I said that in

3 addition to our movements being curtailed, we were even unable to venture

4 onto the roofs and balconies of our own houses because of the snipers.

5 Q. That, of course, is not true. But tell me, please: Who

6 restricted your movements? How were your movements restricted and

7 curtailed?

8 A. It is true that nobody came to me personally to tell me that you

9 cannot go out into the city, and so on, but the fact of mysterious

10 killings is reason enough for citizens to curtail their own movements,

11 i.e., to get out when in desperate need and not on every single occasion.

12 Q. All right. My question was: Did anybody restrict your movements

13 by issuing an order of any kind, or decree of any kind, and your answer

14 was no. Let's move on not to lose time.

15 Have you heard of an Albanian by the name of Berisha Zymber?

16 A. No, I haven't heard.

17 Q. So you don't know that he was killed?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you know that the press, radio, and television made public

20 all these killings in Pec? You had a local radio station and were able to

21 watch Radio Television Serbia's programmes as well, and Pristina's

22 programmes, and so on. So does that mean that you weren't kept abreast

23 with the information media?

24 A. I'm certainly not -- I did not follow the information disseminated

25 by this media instilled in Peja. As you very well know, we used to follow

1 other programmes beamed through satellite and so on.

2 Q. So you just followed the television programmes and radio

3 programmes coming from Albania and the Western media; is that it?

4 A. The programmes from Albania, very, very little, but it was mostly

5 CNN and EuroNews and other programmes broadcast from Europe, because that

6 is where we were able to get the truth from, to find out what was

7 happening in our vicinity.

8 Q. So through EuroNews, you got to know what was, in fact, going on

9 in the town in which you lived; is that what you're saying?

10 A. I was not referring to my own city only, but to Kosova at large.

11 These were the programmes which we used to listen to. And I mentioned

12 other outlets as well, if I recall correctly.

13 Q. All right. Via EuroNews and the other media. So you claim that

14 you knew nothing about what was going on in your own town; is that it?

15 A. I didn't say I didn't know anything. I only replied to the

16 questions on the names that you put to me, and what I said is that I had

17 no knowledge. I hadn't heard of any programme that would have broadcast

18 the incidents that you mentioned here.

19 Q. And have you heard of an Albanian called Kuci Skender, Kutsi

20 [phoen] or Kuci [phoen]. I'm not sure how you pronounce the name, but it

21 was Kuci or Kuci Skender?

22 A. No, I don't know this name.

23 Q. What about another Albanian, Adem - or two Albanians - Adem and

24 Bakir Gjuka?

25 A. Can I please have the surname repeated?

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1 Q. Gjuka, Adem and Bakir?

2 A. Yes, I've heard of them, and I've known them personally. These

3 were kidnapped and executed on the 23rd, i.e., they were found dead.

4 JUDGE MAY: On the 23rd of what, Mr. Zatriqi?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 23rd of July, 1998.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. 1998? 1998. They were killed -- kidnapped and killed by the

8 KLA. That's right, the end of July 1998.

9 Now, do you know who --

10 JUDGE MAY: The witness -- you haven't asked a question. You've

11 merely put forward an assertion. It is pointless going on asking this

12 witness about things which he doesn't know.

13 Do you know what happened to those two, for instance?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, he just said that they were

15 kidnapped.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but do you know what happened after they were

17 kidnapped?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The brothers Gjuka were taken

19 by uniformed Serbian police, and at about 2100. And eyewitnesses have

20 given an account of this, and I've got it here. They said that they were

21 executed. They were found dead and massacred at the crossroads between

22 the sugar and beer factories, and the workers who went in for the early

23 shift were the ones who found them.

24 JUDGE MAY: Did you speak to any of the witnesses yourself?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They were the ones to give me

1 this account, because I knew not only the witnesses but also the Gjuka

2 brothers and their families, so I spoke to their families and to the

3 witnesses.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You therefore claim that they were not killed by KLA members. You

6 say that the policemen took them off somewhere and massacred them and

7 threw their bodies away. Is that your story?

8 A. Yes. This is the truth.

9 Q. All right. That's quite sufficient by way of an answer.

10 Do you know who Nuredin Zejnullahu was, Zejnullahi or -llahu,

11 Zejnullah Nuredin?

12 A. Yes. He was a medical doctor. I have known him very well. His

13 murder also shook the city of Peja -- rather, shocked.

14 Q. Yes. And his daughter was injured on the occasion slightly. He

15 was killed by the KLA at his very threshold. Is that correct or not?

16 A. You're wrong here. He was killed by masked people on the

17 threshold of his house. They spoke Serbian, and I know this very well.

18 Your assertion that the KLA killed him holds no water.

19 Q. Well, do you know that there was a whole investigation, with

20 evidence as to what had happened? It shocked everybody. He was killed

21 because he worked in the hospital, because he worked like a normal citizen

22 of Serbia, doing his job at his workplace. The whole country knows about

23 that.

24 A. Yes, that's how it is, but you're ignoring the fact that it was

25 your own police who did that. And nobody is disputing the fact that he

1 worked in a hospital. He was a medical doctor. He was doing a job, like

2 every other Albanian who was employed at the hospital. His profession was

3 such that he had to be at the service of the population, and that is how

4 we all knew the late doctor.

5 JUDGE MAY: Did you speak to anybody who witnessed this particular

6 event?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the incident, I spoke to a

8 great many of his colleagues, and one of my relatives is a colleague of

9 Cekos [phoen], and that is how I gathered some information on the

10 incident, and I think they are accurate.

11 JUDGE MAY: And can you tell us when this was?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened around November 1998.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. It happened on the 18th of November, 1998, and his daughter, Aida

15 was a witness, was an eyewitness, and she was lightly injured on the

16 occasion. There are records about all this, and without a doubt, this was

17 a gruesome killing by a group of KLA members.

18 JUDGE MAY: That is what you say. The witness's evidence is

19 otherwise.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. That is what eyewitnesses

21 claim, including the man's own daughter.

22 JUDGE MAY: You can go into the witness stand yourself and give

23 evidence, Mr. Milosevic. At the moment, you're not doing so; you're

24 simply asking questions.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll hurry up and ask a

1 few more questions regarding the witness's statement, because quite

2 obviously you're going to take away the floor in ten minutes' time. So I

3 don't want to be put in this situation, in a situation where I can't get

4 through all my questions, and they have to do with the credibility of the

5 whole statement.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Just tell me this. Give me a yes or no answer to my next few

8 questions, because we haven't got time. Was Pec bombed by NATO? Yes or

9 no.

10 A. Until the 28th of March, it was not. 28th was the day when I was

11 deported.

12 Q. All right. Then answer me this question: How many Serbs are

13 still living in Pec now?

14 A. I don't know. There are some in the surroundings of Peja, but I

15 don't know about the town.

16 Q. All right. Your answer is you don't know. Do you know whether

17 there are any Serbs left in Pec at all? Yes or no.

18 A. There were some at the Peja patriarchate and there were some

19 around the church there, but I don't know otherwise.

20 Q. All right. Is it true that you gave the first statement to the

21 investigators on the 20th of June, 2001?

22 A. That's right. On the 20th of June, I gave my statement.

23 Q. Is it true that your statement was read out to you in Albanian and

24 that you confirmed that it was truthful and given to the best of your

25 recollections and knowledge and signed to that effect by yourself?

1 A. Yes, it was read out, and everything in the statement is based on

2 what I said.

3 Q. Just yes or no, please, to save time: Is it true that you said

4 that you returned to Pec on the 26th of July, 1999, after having

5 previously left Pec on the 28th of March, 1999? Yes or no.

6 A. It's true. I returned to Peja on the 26th.

7 Q. Is it true that on the occasion, you stated that your three

8 coaches were found in the same place - they had allegedly seized them from

9 you on the 23rd of March - but that they had been burnt? Yes or no.

10 A. When I returned, I first went to the place where the buses were

11 parked, and I found them burned and destroyed, not only my buses, but

12 those of my colleagues.

13 Q. All right. But what I was asking you was to give yes or no

14 answers, because they're very short questions.

15 Is it true that your second statement was given to the

16 investigators of this institution seven and a half months later, that is

17 to say, on the 29th of January, 2002?

18 A. That is true, but it's not true that it's the second statement.

19 It's more a supplement to the first statement that I had already given.

20 Q. All right. Did you give this statement to the best of your

21 recollections and knowledge as well?

22 A. I described in the statement things that had happened to me.

23 Q. And tell me, which of these two statements were given to the

24 better portion of your recollections and knowledge, the first one or the

25 second one? What was your recollection better?

1 A. As I said, in the second statement I merely put in some

2 interpretations, because in the first one I said that I knew that my buses

3 were used for deportations, but in the second one I said that I saw with

4 my own eyes that the buses were used for deportations.

5 Q. All right. In the second statement, that is to say the latter

6 statement, you say, "I did not learn that my buses were used for the

7 transportation of the citizens of Pec. In fact, I saw my buses full of

8 people before I was deported from Pec."

9 Is that correct? And that's what it says in your statement, in

10 the short witness statement.

11 A. [Previous translation continues]... statement I said when I was

12 deported, I saw my buses full of citizens who were travelling in my buses

13 but not of their own free will.

14 Q. Tell me what is true. Did you not learn that your coaches were

15 used to transport the citizens of Pec, or when you saw your coaches full

16 of people that you came to learn that they had in fact been used to

17 transport people in Pec? Which of these two statements is correct?

18 A. My buses were confiscated by the police on the 23rd, that is one

19 day before the NATO bombings --

20 Q. We've cleared that up. That's not what I'm asking you. My

21 question is as follows: Did you not learn that your buses were used to

22 transport the citizens of Pec, or when you saw your coaches full of

23 people, you came to realise and became aware of the fact that they had

24 been used to transport people? Yes or no.

25 JUDGE MAY: I don't follow that question. What he says is he saw

1 them full of people. He can't take the matter further than that.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. Then I'll

3 move on.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Is it true that on -- the 26th and the 27th of March you spent in

6 the cellar of your house in the Pec district of Sahat Kulla? That's what

7 you say in your statement.

8 A. That's right. It was Friday evening --

9 Q. All right. So you did spend the 26th and 27th of March. And is

10 it true that you left Pec on the 28th of March?

11 A. I was deported on 28th of March. I didn't leave of my own free

12 will.

13 Q. All right. That is your explanation. Left Pec. So on the 26th

14 and 27th of March, you spent in the cellar of your house in Sahat Kulla in

15 Pec, and you left Pec on the 28th of March.

16 So when did you see or learn that your coaches had been used for

17 transporting people? When did you see that? You were in the cellar on

18 the 26th and 27th, and you left Pec on the 28th. So when were you able to

19 see that your buses had been used for transport?

20 A. I left my house on the 27th, and I say in my statement that I

21 spent the night of the 27th and the 28th at my aunt's house. And on the

22 28th, when the police started coming to the houses, I left in my personal

23 car. And when I got out onto the main road, I saw a long convoy of people

24 on the move, and after a few hundred metres, I came across my bus which

25 was full of the people of Peja.

1 Q. All right. Does that mean that you want to convince the person

2 listening to what you're saying here and now that your -- that is to say

3 that the Serbs used your buses, coaches, to deport Albanians, according to

4 your statement, and then that they brought them back, parked them in the

5 same way they had been parked once they had been taken away and then that

6 they were burnt? Is that what you're claiming?

7 A. It's quite true that the population was deported in my buses.

8 Q. Very well.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I am just going to dwell on a few

12 things that Mr. Zatriqi said.

13 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] You already said that on the 28th you were

15 deported. That's what you said just now, that you were deported from

16 Kosovo. You said here something about the 26th. I'm interested in the

17 26th. The 26th of March, you spent it in the basement. On the 27th,

18 there was the shelling that you spoke of, but you were in the basement on

19 the 26th. On the 26th.

20 Could you explain this? I have to say one thing. I know that on

21 that day, indeed, all of Yugoslavia was in basements and cellars, but why

22 were you in the cellar all day on the 26th?

23 A. The night of the 26th, from Friday to Saturday was the most

24 difficult night for me and my family. We spent it there because there was

25 a lot of movement of the police and the army in my neighbourhood. And

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1 especially there had been tanks situated in the hospital yard and

2 schoolyard, which you could see from my window. And at about 2.00 in the

3 morning, about ten metres away from my house, because I was watching this

4 tank - my family was in the cellar, I wasn't - but a green van came out

5 and about eight armed police got out and they started to shoot at my

6 house. They broke the windows and various bits of the house, and then

7 they pointed their barrels down and they started running. And I thought

8 that they were going to kill my family. But fortunately, nothing

9 happened.

10 But then on the Saturday morning -- I must mention that the van

11 that had stopped in front of my house and from which the police had got

12 out and mercilessly shot at my house, that van, around about 6.00 in the

13 morning, when I had gone to the back of the house, I saw this same van

14 parked in the yard of my neighbours, who were Serb.

15 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, you did not mention a word of any of this earlier

16 on. Earlier on, you just said that on the 27th, shooting started in the

17 neighbourhood of Kapeshnica and that that's what you saw with your own

18 eyes. That's what you said then. But what you are talking about today,

19 you never mentioned before.

20 You also said that on the 27th, you saw people moving about, and

21 you say that you didn't know what was happening. Is that true?

22 A. That's right. On the 27th of March, I saw how the Kapeshnica

23 neighbourhood was being shelled. This event that happened during the

24 night in my house, I saw -- the reason -- the fact that Kapeshnica was

25 being bombarded led me to leave my house.

1 Q. You didn't mention that you saw the police. You said that on the

2 next day, you got your family into your car and only then you went out to

3 the main road. Could you explain to the Court your motives? Why did you

4 leave? You did not mention that anybody had influenced you in any way in

5 order for you to leave your house. Can you explain the circumstances

6 under which you decided to leave your house?

7 A. First, my surname is Zatriqi, just to correct you. It seems to me

8 I have adequate reason --

9 Q. I want to apologise.

10 A. I had adequate reason to leave Peja, because my aunt's house was

11 in a neighbourhood called Jarina, and people, the police had begun to

12 arrive, and police had come -- started coming from house to house, giving

13 five-minute ultimatums to leave. And that is the reason why I left my

14 town and aunt's house together with my aunt's family.

15 Q. I shall conclude my questions related to, sir, by saying to you

16 that that's not the way you described it. After what you said in your

17 statement, you explained that at one moment you got into your car. Why

18 didn't you put it that way earlier on, I mean the way you spoke here

19 today?

20 A. I think I did mention these things but rather more briefly, and

21 perhaps this is how you understood it. Because I can't distort things

22 that told -- things that happened to me, and I will always tell it in a

23 straightforward manner.

24 Q. I would just like to ask you about one more thing. In 1998 and

25 1999, before the 25th of March, did you hear at all of any armed conflicts

1 between the army and the KLA in your area?

2 A. I am not sure, but I think that there were clashes, perhaps not --

3 you can't really call them clashes, but Loxhe, a village near Peja, was

4 shelled, but I don't think there were clashes between the KLA and the

5 army, but villages were shelled.

6 Q. And did people, either Albanians or Serbs, come down to Pec in

7 order to seek shelter from these conflicts so that they would not be

8 harmed in any way? Yes or no.

9 A. If you're talking about Loxhe, there was no need to come down to

10 Peja because Loxhe is part of the plain in which Peja is situated. But

11 yes, they did seek shelter.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.

14 MS. ROMANO: Just one matter, if I may.

15 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

16 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, you told the Court that when you came back to Peja,

17 you found not only your bus but those from your colleagues totally

18 destroyed. So how many buses did you see at that time?

19 A. When I came back and found the buses parked, there were about 12

20 other buses. So along with three of my own, there were 15 buses all

21 destroyed and burned.

22 Q. And Mr. Zatriqi, do you know what happened to these buses before,

23 or were they kidnapped or taken the same way as yours?

24 A. The buses were confiscated on the 23rd, and I didn't see them

25 until the 28th, when I was deported. And there was one of them -- there

1 were others belonging to my colleagues. And some of them went to the

2 Albanian border, and others, which I saw with my own eyes, went in the

3 direction of Rozaje.

4 Q. And how do you know that, Mr. Zatriqi? Did you speak with the

5 people, with the owners of the buses?

6 A. I had no need to talk to the owners because I could recognise

7 them. And they were full of town people; women, children, the elderly,

8 who I say were in those buses against their will.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zatriqi.

10 MS. ROMANO: No further questions, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zatriqi, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

12 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, just before we bring the other witness,

16 the other witness will be Mahmut Halimi. The next one is Aferdita

17 Hajrizi, but I believe we still have pending a ruling on the admissibility

18 of the written statement.

19 JUDGE MAY: Do the amicus, any amicus, want to address us on the

20 admissibility under Rule 92 bis of that particular statement? It appears

21 to be admissible. The witness will come for cross-examination.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I say something, Your

23 Honours?

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] On behalf of the amici, this

1 rests within your rights. It is up to you to assess this, and I see no

2 reason why it wouldn't be used possibly.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, do you want to say anything about it?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Then it will be admitted.

6 MS. ROMANO: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution will call Mr. Mahmut

9 Halimi.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd take the declaration, Mr. Halimi.

12 WITNESS: MAHMUT HALIMI

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

17 Examined by Mr. Saxon:

18 Q. Sir, is your name Mahmut Halimi?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you born on the 7th of April in 1954?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Halimi, were you born in the village of Zhabar in the

23 Mitrovica municipality of Kosovo?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On the 24th of August, 2001, did you provide a statement to

1 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor about events that you

2 witnessed and experienced in Kosovo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the 31st of January of this year, 2002, in the town of

5 Mitrovica, Kosovo, were you provided with a copy of the statement that you

6 made on the 24th of August, 2001, in the presence of representatives of

7 the Office of the Prosecutor and a presiding officer appointed by the

8 Registrar of this Tribunal?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And at that time, did you confirm that the copy of the statement

11 provided to you, the statement that was made on the 24th of August, 2001,

12 was true and correct?

13 A. Yes, with a few corrections resulting from some interpretation in

14 the course of the translation.

15 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at this time I would like to tender

16 Mr. Halimi's statement into evidence.

17 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 114, Your Honours.

18 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, in summary, Mr. Mahmut Halimi received a

19 law degree from the University of Pristina in 1977. He was a judge for

20 many years in Mitrovica and has also maintained his own private law

21 practice.

22 Mr. Halimi's statement describes the different Serb forces in

23 Mitrovica who committed serious crimes prior to the outbreak of the

24 international armed conflict in 1999 and the harassment that he and his

25 family suffered during this period.

1 Mr. Halimi describes the murder of two prominent Kosovo Albanians

2 in Mitrovica, Mr. Latif Berisha and Mr. Agim Harizi, shortly after the

3 NATO bombing campaign began in March 1999.

4 On the 25th of March, Mr. Halimi received an anonymous phone call

5 in the Serbian language. The caller said to him, "You have to escape,

6 because it is your turn. They are killing you at the end."

7 Mr. Halimi describes how he and his family fled his home, first to

8 the village of Zhabar. Shortly after the family fled, their home in

9 Mitrovica was attacked and looted.

10 After two days in Zhabar, members of the KLA told Mr. Halimi that

11 he should leave the village because his presence was endangering the rest

12 of the village. Mr. Halimi spent six nights in the mountains before

13 eventually returning to Zhabar.

14 On the 14th of April, 1999, Serb police and paramilitary forces

15 approached Zhabar. Mr. Halimi and his family fled to the nearby village

16 of Zhabar i Eperm. On the 15th of April, Mr. Halimi and his family

17 observed Serb police and military units pushing approximately 25.000 to

18 30.000 people from neighbourhoods of Mitrovica towards the village of

19 Zhabar.

20 Eventually, Serb forces split this large crowd into two groups.

21 One group was initial sent to a school in the village of Shipol. Several

22 young men were executed during this process. The second group eventually

23 was also sent to Shipol. On the morning of the 16th of April, Mr. Halimi

24 watched as this group of approximately 30.000 people were sent away

25 towards the town of Peja.

1 At about 11.00 on that same morning, Serb forces entered the

2 village where Mr. Halimi and his family had taken shelter, firing their

3 weapons and burning homes. Mr. Halimi and his family attempted to escape

4 from Zhabar i Eperm in an automobile, but their vehicle was seized by Serb

5 soldiers who ordered them to continue on foot. They were directed to walk

6 to the bus station in Mitrovica. The family walked back to the village of

7 Zhabar, where they sought shelter for the night in some empty houses.

8 The following day, 17 April, Mr. Halimi and his brother were able

9 to obtain two automobiles for the transport of their families. They

10 joined a column of vehicles which was repeatedly stopped and robbed by

11 Serb forces. The column eventually travelled from Mitrovica to Klina to

12 Djakovica, then past the city of Prizren and to the border with Albania.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, do you want to start your

14 cross-examination now or would you rather we adjourn before you do?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's up to you.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You can begin your cross-examination now.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Immediately upon graduation, you became a judge

20 at the municipal court, and somewhat later you became a judge at a

21 district court, when you were very young, from what I can see here. Were

22 you the youngest judge at the district court?

23 A. First of all, after finishing my studies, I had an apprenticeship

24 which lasted about a year, according to the laws. After that, I took my

25 exams, and following that, I became a district court judge. It is a fact

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1 that I was one of the youngest judges. At the same time, there were two

2 of my colleagues who graduated at the same time and were of the same age

3 and were accepted at the district court.

4 Q. You say at the beginning of your written statement:

5 "At the beginning of 1982 I became a judge at the district court

6 in Mitrovica. When I was given permission to retire, I ended my career as

7 a judge, in 1985, and then in 1986 I opened my own law office," and so on

8 and so forth.

9 Why did you retire that early, in 1985, practically three years

10 after you became a district court judge in Kosovska Mitrovica? In 1985.

11 You were born in 1954; is that right?

12 A. I did not resign. I did not forward any application. But I had a

13 request to be dismissed from the job of the judge because I wanted to

14 practice as a defence lawyer.

15 Q. You say that you were granted retirement by having submitted an

16 application. So were you retired as a judge of the district court, and

17 did you then become a defence lawyer? Yes? No?

18 A. No, that is not correct. I forwarded an application to be

19 discharged, and with the expiry of the three-month period. And if the

20 assembly which has appointed the judge does not take a decision on it,

21 with the expiry of the three-month period, his mandate comes to an end,

22 and that was the procedure that was applied in my own case.

23 Q. I'm asking you because it says here in your own statement that

24 your own request was granted, your request for retirement. So what it

25 says here in the statement is an inaccurate interpretation of what you

1 said. That's the way I understand it now. Right?

2 A. It may be a misinterpretation resulting from the translation from

3 English into Albanian or the Serbian. The truth is as I mentioned it

4 earlier.

5 Q. All right. You said in your statement that as for the interests

6 of your clients, you could have them realised only through money. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, that is correct, in the majority of cases.

9 Q. That means that as a former judge, first of the municipal court

10 and then of the district court, and then as a lawyer, as an attorney, with

11 that kind of career, that you were involved in bribery.

12 JUDGE MAY: I don't follow that. What's the point? What's the

13 question, Mr. Milosevic? What's the question?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I asked, in relation

15 to the witness's statement -- how did he put it here? The interests of

16 his clients, he had them fulfilled through money. And I asked him whether

17 that's correct, and he said that it is correct. And the question --

18 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps we had better get an explanation of the

19 answer, what that means.

20 Now, can you help us, Mr. Halimi --

21 Just a moment. We'll have it clarified.

22 Mr. Halimi, can you help us? What is the position here? What is

23 being said is that you were involved in bribery. Now, can you help us

24 with that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Let me explain very briefly.

1 During the time of Milosevic's regime in Kosovo, justice in Kosovo was

2 bought and sold. It was to be paid for.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So as a lawyer, as an attorney, you were involved in bribery; is

5 that right?

6 A. The only way to secure freedom, somebody's freedom -- it was the

7 only way to secure the freedom of my clients.

8 Q. A short while ago you pointed out that that's the way it was

9 during the Milosevic regime. However, you became an attorney, a lawyer,

10 in 1985, or the beginning of 1986. Is that contradictory to what you've

11 been saying?

12 A. These words that you quoted, I was thinking of the 1990s. I

13 wasn't thinking of 1985.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, let me ask the witness a

15 question. I'm afraid I'm not understanding this whole matter of bribery,

16 and in particular, of the witness's personal involvement as a lawyer in

17 bribery.

18 Can you give us a practical example of how you were involved in

19 this buying of the freedom of your clients? Give us a practical example,

20 because it's not clear to me at all.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was 1994, and there was a

22 person accused of a large quantity of weapons, which, under the chief

23 examination in the Mitrovica district court, the accusation remained

24 concerning three guns. And for this he was sentenced to two years'

25 imprisonment. And to lessen the sentence, in the Serbian Supreme Court,

1 you had to find a connection, and 5.000 marks were paid, and my client was

2 left with a reduced sentence of one year's imprisonment, while for one

3 gun, a long one, that is, an automatic weapon or a military gun, the

4 Mitrovica communal court, and other courts, would pronounce minimum

5 sentences of six to eight months. And I think this says a lot.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE MAY: We'll return to this after the adjournment. It's time

8 to adjourn now until half past 2.00.

9 Mr. Halimi, would you remember, in this adjournment and any others

10 there may be, not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's

11 over.

12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Halimi, before the adjournment you were

3 telling us about the practice of the -- in relation to the inference of

4 money in the judicial system. What I'd like to find out is just how

5 widespread was that practice of bribery?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can freely say that this practice,

7 especially from 1993 onwards, until the end of 1998, was an open secret

8 known to every single citizen of Kosova.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you yourself participated in this practice?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my previous statement, when I

11 mentioned a case in response to a question from the accused, I said 5.000

12 Deutschmarks were given, and this was confirmed by the brother of my own

13 client, and I can responsibly assert here before Your Honours that, in my

14 whole life, in my whole career as a defence lawyer, it only occurred once

15 to me that I had to produce a thousand Deutschmarks to have something done

16 that related to me, and the rest I've heard from other people.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Well, let's continue with that, then. In view of the fact that in

20 your statement, you explained, in very clear terms, that this was the

21 practice, or rather, that that was the practice you engaged in, are you

22 now withdrawing that statement that you previously made by saying that you

23 only did it once? Are you retracting that or do you stand by your

24 statement and said that you had to do your job through money, with the

25 help of money, as you said in your statement?

1 A. It appears you have not understood the answer correctly, so let me

2 clarify, and this will be crystal clear. I said, regarding especially the

3 period from 1993 to 1998, Serbian justice, which decided the fate of the

4 Albanians all, where the life of Albanians was at issue, meant -- and

5 we've often commented with my own colleagues, we'd often say that Serbian

6 justice is on the point of being sold as a commodity on the market.

7 Q. I think that regardless of the harsh terms used, that you can't

8 retract what you said in your statement. Let me quote. It is on page 3,

9 at the beginning of the page, the first paragraph on that page. I'll jump

10 over the unimportant things, although I can take it from the beginning:

11 "I had to find hundreds of ways to keep good relations with the

12 Serb authorities in Mitrovica. I always had to act in the interests of my

13 clients, and the most difficult moments in my professional work was when I

14 realised that nothing but money was the reality. It happened,

15 unfortunately, rather often. I had some difficult times when I had to go

16 back to my clients and tell them that they had to pay because Serb justice

17 was only valid if they were ready to pay."

18 Therefore, your qualifications of Serb justice - we'll