1 Thursday, 23 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: A few preliminary matters first. The Prosecution would

7 seek to recall Dr. Baccard to give further evidence in relation to the

8 bodies of the women found in the well. We forecast that the evidence he

9 could give in direct evidence would only take about ten minutes.

10 His evidence will fit with other evidence going to show where the

11 women came from but will be the only evidence going to show the manner in

12 which they died and would go to show that they were alive when they were

13 thrown into the well and would go to show, to some extent, in respect to

14 two bodies that were capable of examination in sufficient detail, either

15 that they very probably had been or may have been sexually assaulted

16 before being thrown into the well to die.

17 So it's important evidence, and it won't take very long to give,

18 and in our respectful submission, the doctor could properly be allowed to

19 give that evidence before he leaves, which he has to today, I understand.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we had an indication that you may make this

22 application. We understand the importance of the evidence, but

23 nonetheless, we are applying strict rules, strict rules to the length of

24 time which the accused can have and strict rules to you as timing, and

25 part of that procedure must be that we move along with the witnesses. To

1 allow this witness to be recalled on a matter which should have been

2 prepared beforehand and should have been part of his witness statement

3 will take up the best part of an hour, I suspect. It's also evidence

4 which, as far as I can see, has not been disclosed before, although I may

5 be wrong about that.

6 Nonetheless, we are going to apply strict rules to you as we apply

7 them to everybody else. We understand it may cause inconvenience, but

8 nonetheless, the Prosecution must be ready before it calls its evidence,

9 like anybody else.

10 MR. NICE: The evidence has in fact been disclosed in advance. The

11 precise history of the oversight whereby the evidence was omitted the

12 first time is not something I can deal with immediately. The Prosecution,

13 I think, must make its position clear now, as it will have to in

14 subsequent discussions about timing, that we will respectfully say that

15 there has to come a time when the mere interests of the time of the case

16 must be balanced against the interest of having the full evidence before

17 the Chamber.

18 We will do all that we can, as we have been from first to last, to

19 deal with this matter expeditiously, but we would respectfully say that

20 there will inevitably be occasions when things don't go perfectly, and we

21 would invite the Chamber not always to say that such imperfections should

22 lead to the exclusion of evidence.

23 The second point I wish to make --

24 JUDGE MAY: No, let me deal with that since you make the point.

25 The interests of time are not mere interests. They are in the interests

1 of justice and the interests of justice are that this case is finished

2 expeditiously.

3 Secondly, of course there are occasions when the interests of time

4 must give way to other considerations, and the Trial Chamber is fully

5 alert to that. We will consider any applications you have in due course

6 to call other evidence, but it must be made plain that this case is to be

7 finished on time, and that means that the parties, both parties, must put

8 on their case with the maximum of expedition.

9 Yes. The next point.

10 MR. NICE: The next point relates to expedition, a topic, of

11 course, to which I know we're returning generally next week, I think.

12 K5, who is a witness in waiting and one that, for example, we may

13 be able to take tomorrow if the other two witnesses were, happily, to be

14 finished by then, is one in respect of whom the Chamber has made no order

15 about adducing his evidence under 92 bis. I think the Chamber indicated

16 on an earlier occasion it was provisionally not minded to grant the 92 bis

17 application, subject to further discussion and argument; and in the

18 interests of economy, may I just explain why the Chamber might think it

19 appropriate to take his evidence under the provisions of 92 bis without

20 necessarily ruling on the matter immediately, although we would need to

21 have his statement subject to the 92 bis provisions today, which would

22 involve our negotiating with the Registry about it.

23 Would Your Honour just give me one minute?

24 [Prosecution counsel confer]

25 MR. NICE: These are the reasons why 92 bis provisions might be

1 appropriate: The time constraints, to which we've already made allusions;

2 the fact that his evidence goes to acts and conduct of people other than

3 the accused; and then as to the body of his testimony, the Chamber will

4 recall that his testimony covers acts of arson, grenade attacks that he

5 was obliged to engage in and aware of performed against the Albanian

6 community one way and another.

7 Now, that evidence, although of course it's important evidence, is

8 nevertheless corroborative of the allegations of destruction of property,

9 intimidation, and targeting of high profile Kosovo Albanians that has been

10 given in general and specific terms by other witnesses.

11 So those are the reasons why the Chamber might think that it is an

12 appropriate witness for the provisions of 92 bis, but, Your Honour, that's

13 as far as I'm going to go in relation to it.

14 JUDGE MAY: It may be convenient to raise something in private

15 session. Can we go into private session, please.

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22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

24 JUDGE MAY: On the issue of 92, whether he's appropriate for 92

25 bis, it may be sensible if we confer for a moment.

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MAY: We've considered this. This is an exceptional witness

3 in the nature of the evidence which he gives, which is unlike any other

4 evidence we've heard. Given the background and the nature of the

5 evidence, we think it should be given in full and not in statement form.

6 MR. NICE: We will prepare accordingly. I'm grateful for that

7 ruling. I was in error when I said that he was not being granted voice

8 distortion. In fact your order of the 22nd of March permitted both facial

9 and voice distortion.

10 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

11 MR. NICE: As far as I'm aware, the next witness I'm going to be

12 calling, Baton Haxhiu, it has been raised with me the possibility of

13 reversing the order of witnesses. Mr. Ryneveld's dealing with that. I'll

14 ask Ms. Graham just to go out and make sure it's going to be Baton Haxhiu

15 next.

16 JUDGE MAY: Actually, if we could stick to that because too much

17 variation makes it very difficult for everybody.

18 MR. NICE: I gather he's in the witness room. I'm sorry.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 MR. KAY: It's just on K5. It may help the proceedings if both

21 parties agree that the Court has the statement of the witness in full. It

22 might make it easier to navigate through his evidence, which is -- the

23 statement is so detailed that I can foresee there will be problems without

24 it.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we have that statement.

1 MR. KAY: Yes. You've had it already.

2 JUDGE MAY: We've had it.

3 MR. KAY: And the summary.

4 JUDGE MAY: And we've got a revised summary.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In this connection with the next

6 witness -- what's his name? Baton Haxhiu, yes. I think that it is quite

7 clear that, according to your rules, he could not testify according to

8 Rule 92 bis because he mentions and says in his statement -- talks about

9 his statement -- in his statement about his alleged contacts with me, with

10 the chief of security and so on and so forth. So he can't come under Rule

11 92 bis. He must give an entire, complete statement and testimony.

12 And my second remark is: Why was this witness known as Witness

13 K28 up until now? And why have these double listings for the witnesses

14 both as secret and --

15 JUDGE MAY: You can ask him about that if you want. That's not a

16 matter for us.

17 MR. NICE: I was going to say, as I had indeed forecast yesterday,

18 that there is one paragraph in the addendum to the statement which I'll

19 take you to which would fall outside the potential for 92 bis procedure,

20 and if the Court has the addendum, it's under the: "I would add the

21 following: I first met Mr. Milosevic ..."

22 JUDGE KWON: We haven't received that.

23 JUDGE MAY: We haven't had that.

24 MR. NICE: I'm sorry if you haven't received that. It was dealt

25 with --

1 JUDGE MAY: And the proposal is?

2 MR. NICE: That paragraph to be given in live.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

4 MR. NICE: It's a press conference where ...

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One more thing, please, that I wish

6 to say. I don't mind what you're going to decide, I just wish to draw

7 your attention once again to the violation of the Rules, because this is

8 an additional statement, and as Mr. Nice said a moment ago and it was

9 provided to me last night, after the end of business yesterday, and

10 statements must be provided at least a certain amount of time before they

11 are read. That is one point.

12 Secondly, I was given all the material in English once again

13 although we have a Trial Chamber ruling that I must be supplied with the

14 documents in my own language. The other side has English as their mother

15 tongue so I am receiving documents in the mother tongue of the opposite

16 side, and that is a fine illustration on the small issue of the equality

17 of arms of the two sides. That is to say that I am being provided with

18 the material in the mother tongue of the opposite side let alone all the

19 other --

20 JUDGE MAY: Let's hear what the Prosecution have to say about

21 this. When was this second statement? I see it's dated the 22nd of May.

22 MR. NICE: I think the addendum was only done yesterday in the

23 process of preparation in the usual way where witnesses are taken through

24 the material. These are matters he had to add. When we introduced the 92

25 bis procedure that we've been adopting with considerable judicial economy

1 some weeks ago, it was on the basis that there might be occasional

2 additional points to be made or corrections to be made, and as I

3 understand it, although I haven't been in court for these witnesses,

4 broadly similar practice have applied and there is nothing at all unfair

5 in him adding -- in his adding to his previous statement by these one or

6 two additional matters. The accused can no doubt deal with them.

7 As to the English language version, we understand that the B/C/S

8 translation will be with us shortly. We had a language assistant working

9 on it all night.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I say the translated version is now

12 available.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let that be handed over.

14 MR. NICE: And might I, I hope without inconveniencing you, just

15 add this point: To allow this additional material to be given, one way or

16 another, is no different from what happens with witnesses who give

17 evidence in full viva voce but whose proofing summaries add material

18 exactly of this kind to their pre-existing statements in a way that's

19 inevitable when witnesses come to the moment of giving evidence and are

20 focused on the relevant history.

21 Applying the 92 bis provisions to an addendum of this kind is

22 simply a sensible use of our procedures to achieve judicial economy. We

23 would, of course, be content, subject to the restrictions of time, simply

24 to take addendums in full viva voce but there's no need to, in our

25 respectful submission, in a case like this. Although the passage

1 involving the accused directly should be given directly.

2 JUDGE MAY: The issue really is whether the accused should have

3 more time to prepare for cross-examination on this material. The answer

4 may be to allow the evidence to be called and then, if the accused wants

5 more time for cross-examination, we would have to consider that as a

6 matter of fairness since he's not had time to prepare for this.

7 Mr. Milosevic, we'll hear the witness, and you could cross-examine

8 on the other statement. If you want to ask for more time to prepare for

9 cross-examination on this one, then you shall -- we will consider that

10 application if you think there's some matter which you need some time for

11 preparation.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me tell you straight away I'm

13 not asking for anything and I don't need more time. It's all the same to

14 me. I'm just drawing attention to daily violation of the Rules that occur

15 here in this room.

16 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three? One, two, three?

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. No doubt it was the volume on my controls.

18 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I have it now, thank you.

20 You're not asking for more time. Very well. Your comment about

21 the daily violation of the Rules is, of course, wholly wrong and

22 inappropriate.

23 We'll call the witness.

24 MR. NICE: Thank you.

25 [The witness entered court]

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

6 WITNESS: BATON HAXHIU

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I will take the short evidence in chief

9 from this witness in a couple of minutes' time. Before I do so, can I

10 remind the Chamber that by his two statements, to which we will refer

11 later, the witness gives an account of his having been involved in the

12 founding of the newspaper Koha Ditore, and indeed he is a journalist in

13 due course to receive an award in the United States of America at the 9th

14 Annual Press Freedom Awards ceremony where he was awarded for his

15 commitment to the defence of press freedom in Kosovo and throughout the

16 world.

17 His statements cover matters of which we've already heard in part,

18 and sometimes substantially, including the history of the education

19 problems and the education agreement in Kosovo, the non-violent

20 demonstrations by students and others that led to protests in October

21 1998, which involved violent police intervention, and in the judgement of

22 the witness, reaction thereafter by Albanians.

23 He can speak, of course, of the violence perpetrated at the

24 offices of the newspaper where he worked, of his own arrest and

25 interrogation, and of the processes of negotiation between Kosovo

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13 English transcripts.

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1 Albanians, including the person we've seen as a witness, Bakalli, and

2 others that followed.

3 He can deal with the meetings involving, amongst others, the man

4 Stanisic, and indeed he's a witness who observed the participation in

5 events by the last witness but one before this Tribunal, the witness

6 Tanic.

7 He can explain how the Serbian delegation at those negotiations

8 indicated its implacable opposition to certain proposals and can remind

9 the Chamber of the Burnt or Scorched Earth policy that was referred to by

10 the Serbian side. He will be able to remind the Chamber of how it was

11 that authority for negotiation appeared to be vested in and only in

12 ultimately the accused and the man Stanisic who attended at a second

13 meeting in December of which the witness can speak, in the course of which

14 Stanisic said that the chief of police in Kosovo, Sreten Lukic, had

15 convinced the accused to break up the students' peaceful demonstration by

16 use of force, Stanisic saying that he could not decide anything on his

17 own, although being emphatic that the proposition for a republic in Kosovo

18 would never be accepted to those nationalistic circles surrounding the

19 accused who were prepared to go to war.

20 He, as a witness, expresses the view that the KLA was the product

21 of Serb repression, of an inert international policy and, it may be, of

22 the conservatism in the approach of President Rugova, again a witness from

23 whom you've heard. This witness is one who, with no involvement on his

24 own part or on the part of his family, lost five members of his family on

25 his father's side, including a 9-year-old boy, in the course of the

1 conflict.

2 Examined by Mr. Nice:

3 Q. With that summary, your full name, please?

4 A. My name is Baton Haxhiu.

5 JUDGE MAY: The statement ought to be admitted, the original

6 statement.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes. I was going to turn to that.

8 Q. Did you, Mr. Haxhiu, sign declarations as to the accuracy of two

9 statements that you have made?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The first being a statement prepared at interview on the 20th,

12 21st, and 22nd of August of the year 2001, and the second being an

13 addendum prepared as recently as yesterday?

14 A. Yes. The first was taken down in Prishtina on the said date, the

15 second yesterday. That's correct.

16 Q. The second makes one or two corrections and amplifications, deals

17 with the significance you see in certain documents, and deals with one

18 face-to-face encounter you had with the accused.

19 Turning to that, were you, as a journalist, present at a press

20 conference in Ljubljana, Slovenia, in the late spring or early summer of

21 1990?

22 A. Yes. It was in March or April of 1990. It was a news conference

23 organised after the meeting held by the six presidents of the former

24 republics of the former Yugoslavia, and I was there in the capacity of a

25 journalist, represented then the newspaper Epoka. And I asked two

1 questions of the accused.

2 Q. The questions and his replies, if you please.

3 A. Since I had read the book written by the accused where, on page

4 146, he had said that all issues are open issues, from the border to the

5 kindergartens and the creches, then taking my queue from that statement, I

6 asked the accused: "When are you, Mr. Milosevic, going to get rid of

7 chauvinism and enable the Albanians of Kosovo to determine their own

8 status and win the status of the Republic of Kosova?" And he answered,

9 "This will never occur because the Albanians there are in minority and

10 they don't have the right to self-determination and we are not going to

11 allow secessionism in Kosova and do everything we can to prevent that from

12 happening."

13 Q. You say there were two questions you asked. Was the other one of

14 any significance?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Can you please switch the microphone on, please.

18 MR. NICE: My apologies.

19 Yes. The book to which the witness refers has been located in the

20 building. The passage to which he refers has been translated. They're

21 both being brought to court pretty well immediately. And, Your Honour,

22 with your leave, I would just ask two other questions arising from the

23 supplementary material.

24 Q. In addition to the book to which you've referred, do you regard

25 one or two other documents of particular significance, documents that were

1 published at that time? If the answer to that is yes, can you, but very

2 shortly, in a sentence or so, explain what the documents were and their

3 significance, they being documents that you know we don't have here in the

4 building in English. We do have them, I think, available in Serbian.

5 A. [Interpretation] Yes. There are three documents which have been

6 published in 1996. The first is called "Unfinished Peace," compiled by a

7 group of authors. Then it came out in the form of a book. It's about the

8 visit they made in the region in 1996. They met the accused, and they

9 found out that the situation of the two ethnic groups and the relations

10 between Serbia, the regime of Milosevic, and the parallel system in Kosova

11 were at a deadlock. During the meeting, they found out that the Serbs are

12 incapable of maintaining a tolerant stand towards Albanians and

13 negotiating with them.

14 Another book which observed the same thing was another book

15 speaking about the meeting with Albanian and Serb leaders and warning that

16 the situation in Kosova was on the brink of war. Another document was

17 that which was prepared on the basis of a meeting held between the

18 Albanian and Serb leaders in New York, and it noted that the Albanians and

19 the Serbs are extremely away from each other and from coming to terms

20 regarding the definition of the status of Kosova.

21 These were sufficient reasons to note that the situation in Kosova

22 was serious and the political process was degenerating. And for this,

23 Belgrade was to blame, and the accused as well, who had started -- who

24 continued, I would say, to dramatise the problem of Kosova and transform

25 it into his own private affair.

1 Q. I invite you to pause there. You've identified the documents in

2 general terms, more specifically in the statement, and they're available

3 here for consideration by the accused or the Chamber, if necessary.

4 You've explained their significance, that settlement seemed

5 difficult or impossible at that time. Just then tell us this:

6 Penultimate paragraph on the addendum statement, in the course of your

7 work as a journalist, how complete was your survey of the relevant

8 politicians? How many of them were you able to meet?

9 A. To be frank, Koha Ditore was the only institution free of any

10 influence either by the Serb regime or the Democratic League of Kosova.

11 We were an entirely independent institution, and we tried to reflect the

12 opinions of all parties in order to make clear the prevailing views.

13 Personally, I have conducted 21 interviews with all the Serb

14 opposition and ruling party leaders. That is the Socialist Party,

15 including Mihajlo Markovic, Radomir Bijodic [phoen], former Prime

16 Minister, Vukanic -- I can't -- I don't want to number them here, but

17 there are a total of 21 interviews, and in all of them, with the exception

18 of two or one of them, I think, the others said that the problem of Kosova

19 cannot be resolved without the engagement of the accused and another name

20 very close to him, Mr. Stanisic.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. That all the interviewees --

23 Q. That's, I think, all I need for the time being.

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. Did you attempt to interview the accused? Did you attempt to

1 interview the accused's wife?

2 A. In fact, I considered it as a very serious challenge for myself to

3 conduct an interview with the accused, because he was the main participant

4 in all the events in -- from 1987. But despite my insistence, I have

5 always received a negative answer or no answer at all.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Haxhiu, you will be asked some further questions.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. An exhibit number for the statements.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

9 169.

10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it's for you now to cross-examine this

11 witness, bearing in mind that much of the evidence is about background

12 matter. We've already expressed a view about that, that the relevant

13 matter in this case concerns the indictment, and any preliminary matter is

14 only of significance insofar as it relates to that. The political views

15 of the witness are irrelevant, and therefore, a political argument will

16 not be of assistance to the Trial Chamber. So if you would take this as

17 shortly as you think proper.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Does that mean that the

19 cross-examination will be limited to one hour?

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. This is a 92 bis witness. There was a bit

21 added. The normal rule is one hour. We will consider at the end of it if

22 there's any significant matter which needs covering, and also whether the

23 hour has been spent to proper effect. So that means an absence of

24 argument and repetition.

25 Mr. Haxhiu -- just one moment. Just one moment.

1 Mr. Haxhiu, could you bear in mind, please, when answering

2 questions, that time is limited and, therefore, if you would answer as

3 shortly as you properly can, that would be of assistance.

4 THE WITNESS: Okay.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted, as a preliminary, to put a

7 question to you, because you said if the questions are appropriate. Do

8 you mean that some of my questions were inappropriate?

9 JUDGE MAY: Some of them, yes, because you tend to argue with the

10 witnesses and to repeat what's been said and go over the same ground

11 several times.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I would like to get an

13 answer to my question. I only insist on getting an answer. I am not

14 aware of having quarreled with any witnesses, because these false

15 witnesses that are coming to testify do not merit me disputing -- having a

16 dispute with them.

17 It is now ten to ten. I'll see what I can do.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

19 Q. You gave a statement to the investigators of the Prosecution, did

20 you not?

21 A. Yes, I did, a statement that was recorded in Prishtina.

22 Q. You spoke to an investigator whose name is Fred Abrahams; is that

23 right?

24 A. Yes. Yes. And apart from him, there was also someone else

25 present at that meeting.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you please explain to the

2 witness, if I'm asking such direct questions, that his answers have to be

3 yes or no. I did not ask him about the presence others but only about

4 Fred Abrahams. His answer is yes, so I can move on.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Bear that in mind, if you would, Mr. Haxhiu.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did that person introduce himself as an investigator of the OTP?

8 A. Yes. The other person who was there present introduced himself as

9 by this name or in this capacity.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... about the other person.

11 However, in your statement, you say that you gave that statement to the

12 International Criminal Tribunal. Isn't that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the person who interviewed you, did he introduce himself as an

15 investigator of the Tribunal or an investigator of the Prosecution?

16 A. He introduced himself as an investigator of the Tribunal.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, Messrs. May, Robinson,

19 and Kwon, I wish to indicate something because Fred Abrahams, the person

20 who appears here in the role of an investigator that the witness is

21 referring to, that same said Fred Abrahams, is a witness testifying on

22 behalf of Human Rights Watch here.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we noted that and in due course you can ask Mr.

24 Abrahams about it if he gives evidence.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I'm not asking Mr. Abrahams, I'm

1 asking you whether someone who works at the same time as an investigator,

2 someone who is following all trials, and witnesses are not supposed to

3 follow trials, and who is a journalist of Human Rights Watch to appear in

4 the role of a witness here. In how many roles can a person appear in?

5 Only not in my case, apparently.

6 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal with that when it comes to Mr. Abrahams'

7 evidence.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You gave your statement in English. That is what you say in the

11 first paragraph of your statement. But in the last paragraph, on page 10,

12 it says, certification of witness: That the witness [sic] was read out

13 aloud to you in the Albanian language.

14 A. I gave the statement in English. That's fact.

15 Q. Well, how, then, was it read out to you in Albanian?

16 A. These documents, which is done in English, is also translated in

17 Albanian in this case. Every witness has a right to ask for that.

18 Q. I am glad to hear that. Do you think that that applies to Serbian

19 as well?

20 JUDGE MAY: That's not a matter for him.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. If you made your statement in English and it was read out to you

23 in Albanian, does that mean that the statement was not read out to you at

24 the time you gave it but after a certain period of time, sometime later?

25 A. I gave the statement in my own home. It was recorded there. Then

1 it was read to me in my office at Koha Ditore.

2 Q. After how many days?

3 A. I don't really remember. I don't think it was important. I

4 really can't say how, exactly how -- when was that, after how many days.

5 Q. In any event, several days later; is that right?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. You graduated at the faculty of law at the university in Pristina

8 in 1992; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. However, it says in your statement that you graduated in 1991,

11 that you concluded your studies in 1991. Why the difference?

12 A. I did my studies at the regular university of Prishtina, but some

13 outstanding exams which I had, I gave them in a parallel university, those

14 exams which I couldn't take during the regular course of studies because

15 we were driven out of the offices of the faculty of law where I was a

16 regular student.

17 Q. And when were you chased out of the premises of the law faculty?

18 A. It was not that we were driven out, actually, but we were not

19 allowed to enter it in October 1981 -- in 1991. There were police forces

20 in front of this faculty building as well as in front of other university

21 buildings.

22 Q. And you are claiming that the police would not allow Albanian

23 students to enter the faculty premises in 1991?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Please answer my question: Is it true that it was not that

1 tuition was suspended but there was a boycott by Albanians in response to

2 a call by separatist Albanian politicians in the country and abroad to

3 boycott everything under state control; in education, in health, in public

4 media, in economic enterprises and so on. Is that correct or not?

5 A. No.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I have a document

7 here which shows that in 1990 some municipalities of Kosova, all the

8 professors were withheld their pay, and after that, 680 professors of

9 Prishtina municipality were likewise withheld their salaries. And this

10 went on for 2.000 professors in Prishtina. I have documents here with me

11 to corroborate what I'm saying as to the number of professors who have

12 been -- who have been -- tied their hands. I have documents here. I

13 don't see it as a boycott. It seems unreasonable for me to boycott

14 tuition and education.

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We -- Mr. Haxhiu, we have the point. At

16 the end, the Prosecution can re-examine, and if they want to bring out any

17 points, they will.

18 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. So you don't know anything about the boycott from the period

21 you're testifying about. You know nothing about the boycott I asked you

22 about, nothing at all?

23 JUDGE MAY: He says it wasn't a boycott.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered this question. There

25 wasn't a boycott. I'm a hundred per cent sure there was no boycott.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Very well, then. And do you know why some teacher does not

3 receive his salary? Do you know that salaries are usually not received

4 when one doesn't perform one's duties and that salaries are linked to

5 work? So are you claiming that those teachers and professors in schools

6 and universities that were not receiving salaries were performing their

7 duties and still did not receive salaries, or were they not performing

8 their duties?

9 A. Even when they were -- when I was at school in 1990, in Decan and

10 Podujeva and Vushtrria, the Serbian government stopped the teachers'

11 salary. This started in 1990, let us not forget. Later this was

12 reflected in all the towns of Kosova. I believe that the Serbian

13 government will have evidence of this.

14 And in 1991, only 17 per cent, only 17 per cent of schools were

15 able to accept Albanian students, only 17 per cent of the schools of

16 Kosova. The university buildings and high school buildings were banned to

17 Albanians because each of them were watched by two or three policemen in

18 front of the schools. I was a participant in these events and I am a

19 journalist.

20 Q. All right. Don't repeat what you've already said. You claim that

21 the policemen didn't allow you to enter. What I asked you was: Do you

22 claim that the professors that did not receive their salaries, that they

23 carried out their work duties and, in spite of that, did not receive their

24 salaries? That was the point and gist of my question. Did they perform

25 their working duties as teachers in the schools? Were they doing their

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1 job properly and did -- or weren't they doing their job and that's why

2 they didn't receive salaries? Which of the two?

3 A. I think that this is a game with words. They were unable to do

4 their work if they were unable to enter the buildings. And when they

5 started going to private schools, private houses, and they received their

6 salary from the 3 per cent that was paid by the Albanians in the

7 government of Mr. Bukoshi in exile.

8 Q. All right. So you're saying that it wasn't that they didn't

9 receive their salary because they didn't perform their work, but they

10 didn't receive their salary because they were thrown out and it was made

11 impossible for them to do their work, do their job; is that it?

12 A. I can only say one thing. The Official Gazette of Serbia laid

13 down clearly what the school curriculum -- I can't remember the exact

14 date, but it laid down what the plan -- the curriculum of Kosova should

15 be. Let me give an example. In the music schools --

16 JUDGE MAY: We're now going some way from the point.

17 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Let's move on.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You mentioned the school curriculum. Was the school curriculum

20 the same for all children in Serbia?

21 A. In the Prishtina musical school, you introduced about 400 songs

22 that were in the Serbian curriculum, and this in a population that was

23 about 90 per cent Albanian. Is this an argument to bring in 400 songs

24 into the school of music? Let me not -- let me not even mention the

25 issues in history lessons and other subjects of that kind.

1 Q. Well, apart from music, were there any other problems? You

2 mentioned history. History, you said. So music and history, is it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And tell me, please, do you know how many tens of thousands of

5 Albanian children went to the schools where tuition was in Albanian right

6 up until 1999? Are you aware of that? Do you know about that?

7 A. I don't know of any Albanian, any single Albanian going to the

8 schools organised by the Serbian government. I don't know of a single

9 one. If you know one, give me the evidence.

10 Q. So they weren't going to state schools.

11 A. It was impossible. It was impossible. The schools were blockaded

12 for the Albanians.

13 Q. I say they weren't. Very well. That's what you claim. Okay.

14 Now, in your statement, you speak about the fact that Rugova's

15 representatives of the DSK party controlled the Bujku paper and that they

16 manipulated the information distributed to Kosovo's Albanian population,

17 propagating the illusion that Kosovo would one day achieve its

18 independence; is that right?

19 A. I said that -- you have taken this out of context in my statement,

20 but I can say that the newspaper Bujku, in a kind of way, propagated the

21 policies of the LDK, the Democratic League of Kosova.

22 Q. All right. So before you started work to establish a new paper,

23 this idea was propagated, that Kosovo should achieve independence?

24 A. This idea was not propagated by Bujku, but it was quite simply an

25 idea that every Albanian in Kosova had, which was obvious. It wasn't

1 propagated as somebody's idea, but it was the idea -- it's part of an

2 everyday mentality of the people who have their ambitions and goals to

3 achieve, the idea of independence.

4 Q. Independence. And in that regard, you had a clear awareness of

5 the fact that in Kosovo there were Serbs living there too as well as Turks

6 and Muslims and Roma and Gorani, as well as the others. What about them?

7 Did you consider that that was of no importance?

8 A. I think that in Kosova, or in a democratic political system, the

9 majority decides in a referendum and that a part -- and it is clear that

10 the majority ethnic group support the idea of independence and that the

11 Serbian minority does not.

12 Q. Yes. But Kosovo is a part of Serbia. Is that something that you

13 have in your awareness, in your consciousness? Kosovo is not a state for

14 you to be able to speak about a majority community or a minority

15 community. Kosovo is a part of a state, and the name of that state is

16 Serbia.

17 A. I do not know that the state of Serbia is represented in Kosova.

18 Kosova is in the process of forming its own statehood, and Serbia, for the

19 moment, has no presence in Kosova, whether institutional or physical. And

20 what was once an illusion -- so now the return of Serbia to Kosova is now

21 an illusion, just as the independence was once apparently an illusion for

22 us.

23 JUDGE MAY: We're now getting a long way from the indictment,

24 Mr. Milosevic. Let's get back to the topic of this trial.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Please. Would you answer my question, this question: Do you

2 understand by that that you are now free?

3 JUDGE MAY: No. That's an irrelevant question.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. And when you say that Serbia cannot meddle, do you imply the

6 occupation, a state of occupation at the moment of Kosovo and Metohija?

7 JUDGE MAY: That also is irrelevant. Mr. Milosevic, deal with the

8 time with which this indictment is dealing with, not irrelevancies.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So from your statement, it would emerge that in a situation where

12 independence was being propagated and in the situation in which you say

13 you know that the Serb authorities would not allow independence - so those

14 are the premises that you talk about - and also faced with a situation in

15 which you know, as you yourself say that the Serb authorities will

16 tolerate a parallel system which the Albanians have, therefore, what then,

17 in a situation of this kind, does your option mean to accept disturbances

18 of this kind for Kosovo to move ahead, risk shaking up the situation?

19 A. Let me only remark that the Serbian regime and the police had for

20 years humiliated the Albanians and had assaulted their dignity. They had

21 entered into every home. However, you, at the same time, tolerated a

22 parallel system in Kosova which did not offer a danger of changing the

23 situation that you had created.

24 The second element -- element, you tolerated what we might call

25 the -- Mr. Rugova's 32 square metres of independence. And this little

1 enclave of independence was subjected to extreme pressure. There was the

2 pressure of murders, of torture, and of crimes committed by your police.

3 So you were playing a double game.

4 And a third factor was the international community which found

5 this situation a comfortable one, on the one hand to --

6 Q. [Previous translation continues]... I'm not asking about the

7 international community now. What I'm asking you is this: I was asking

8 you about your readiness. You say you were ready to accept violence, to

9 opt for violence and shaking up the situation. So you were ready to opt

10 for violence as a means of achieving your political goal. Yes or no.

11 Yes or no.

12 A. Excuse me, I didn't say that in my statement. I said that Kosova

13 had to change the status quo, and the only institution that was -- which

14 was able to move in any way was the newspaper Koha Ditore, and it was able

15 to bring new things into this process, which didn't mean violence but

16 activism. Because the political process in Kosova had totally

17 degenerated.

18 Q. All right. You say that in 1991 -- you say that in 1991, the Serb

19 police closed down the student paper Bota e Re and that you moved to the

20 Zeri paper. How come the police closed down the Bota e Re, the student

21 newspaper, and it didn't do this to Zeri or Bujku and the others that were

22 well known at the time for their nationalistic and separatistic

23 orientation and so on?

24 A. There were two interventions in Bota e Re. The first one was

25 because we published three caricatures and the police intervened, and then

1 an article entitled "Kosova is not Serbia," and then the police intervened

2 and imposed compulsory measures, and you, the Republic of Serbia, imposed

3 a deputy of Assembly of Serbia as editor of Bota e Re.

4 I will not -- for personal reasons, I will not mention this

5 person's name.

6 Q. And what happened? Was perhaps this publisher a Serb?

7 A. What importance is that, when you introduce compulsory measures,

8 whether he was an Albanian or a Serb?

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, this kind of argument isn't going to assist us.

10 Let's move on.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm asking questions,

12 questions that refer to what the witness talks about in his statement.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, and you get into an endless argument. You have

14 got, so far, to page 1, paragraph 3 in the English, of his statement, and

15 you've been cross-examining for nearly half the time you're allowed. I

16 suggest we move on.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Did you leave Bota e Re because that same institution published

19 the Serbian paper Zeri, so you wanted this paper to become extinguished,

20 this student paper? Yes or no.

21 A. I don't understand the question.

22 Q. The question is: Did you leave so that Bota e Re could become

23 extinguished because it -- there was a parallel edition of Novi Svjet in

24 the Serbian language put out by the same institution? Therefore, you

25 extinguished this institution and moved on to another one which was a

1 purely Albanian institution where there was no parallel paper printed in

2 the Serbian language. Is that right or not?

3 A. Bota e Re was an institution where only Albanians worked. On the

4 other hand, there was Novi Svjet where only Serbs worked. I didn't go to

5 Zeri because there were only Albanians there, I went for other reasons

6 which I said, in fact.

7 Q. All right. Very well. Now, you say in your statement that in

8 1991, Television Kosovo was closed down. I don't know that Television

9 Kosovo ever existed. I know that Radio Television Pristina existed, for

10 example, within the composition of Radio Television Serbia, but Radio

11 Television Kosovo, that -- did it exist? Did Radio Television Kosovo

12 exist at all?

13 A. Excuse me for this semantic nuance, but there was -- Prishtina

14 Radio Television did exist and I said Radio Television of Kosovo. In

15 fact, it was Prishtina Radio Television that was closed and 1.300 workers

16 were dismissed.

17 Q. All right. And what about Radio Television Pristina, which is

18 within the frameworks of Radio Television Serbia just as Kosovo is within

19 the frameworks of Serbia? Did it continue after those dates that you make

20 mention of by broadcasting programmes in Albanian, in Serbian, in Turkish,

21 in Romany? So what I'm asking you is did it have, throughout this time,

22 that is to say from the time that you mentioned, did it broadcast all

23 those programmes both in Serbian, Albanian, Turkish and Romany, in all

24 those languages, where the editors who were Albanians, Turks, Romas,

25 Serbs, et cetera? Did it or did it not?

1 A. The programme was absolutely ridiculous. I just cannot imagine

2 how a state like Serbia could sink so low as to employ people who were

3 unable to read in the Albanian language.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Haxhiu, if you would spare us the comment and just

5 concentrate on the facts, please.

6 THE WITNESS: But he made a comment.

7 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter. I'm asking you if you would

8 refrain from comment and just give us the facts.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So is it yes or no? I asked you did the Radio Television Pristina

11 have all these programmes and in all these languages, the languages of the

12 nationalities living in Kosovo? Yes or no.

13 A. It had programmes only in Albanian -- Serbian and Albanian and a

14 five-minute programme in Turkish.

15 Q. All right. But in Serbian and in Albanian. It had programmes in

16 those two languages and you confirm that, do you?

17 A. The Albanian programme was ridiculous.

18 Q. Now, do you know about the network -- that's another question,

19 whether it was ridiculous to you or not. That's a matter of criteria.

20 We're not discussing that here now.

21 JUDGE MAY: Don't waste time on things like that, Mr. Milosevic.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. What about local stations? Did they exist? Those which broadcast

24 in Pec, Prizren, Kosovska Mitrovica, Orahovac, Djakovica, Gnjilane, that

25 broadcast programmes there, did those local stations exist? They didn't.

1 All right. With editorial offices and journalists and editors who were

2 Albanians and all these that I mentioned?

3 A. There was not a single radio station of that kind existed.

4 Q. All right. Which were the only ones, you say? Ah, I see, there

5 were none, not a single one. Now, you say that the paper Bujku, that was

6 under the control of Rugova's LDK, manipulated information and that it

7 propagated the illusion that Kosovo would achieve independence and that

8 therefore you were ready to accept the risk of shaking up the situation;

9 shaking up the situation, disturbing the situation.

10 A. You have the translation wrong.

11 Q. Well, usually those doing the English don't make mistakes.

12 A. I said we were in a position to promote the process and lead it

13 forward.

14 Q. Yes. Yes. I understand what you're trying to explain. Now, you

15 say that those who gained diplomas at the parallel Albanian university had

16 no prospects for getting jobs or moving on professionally because the

17 state did not recognise those diplomas. That's what you say. Now, do you

18 personally know of the case or the example of a single state that

19 recognises the diplomas, even those from legal universities, before they

20 are registered and recognised and certified? Do you think that a right

21 has been violated there?

22 Q. Is there any state that banishes all its pupils and -- pupils and

23 students from its school buildings? You asked for the reasons, and I give

24 you the consequences.

25 JUDGE MAY: Let us deal with the question. The question was the

1 diplomas.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, he answered that more or less,

3 and it's not a vital point, but he did answer it indirectly.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let's try and move on from the early

5 1990s.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You talk about demonstrations. And you even say that the war in

8 Kosovo began on the 1st of October, 1998, when the students held their

9 first peace protest and that the goal of the protest was the application

10 of the agreement that was signed in September 1996 by Milosevic and

11 Rugova, and then you say that the Serb side did not implement what had

12 been agreed upon.

13 Now, as I assume you know that it was precisely in the application

14 of that agreement that tens of thousands of square metres were given the

15 technical faculty, the Albanological institute and so on were handed over,

16 and that the Serb side did in fact implement this, I'm asking you quite

17 specifically now and concretely whether certain elements among the

18 Albanians perhaps did not want to have the agreement applied because the

19 agreement was signed in their name by Ibrahim Rugova whom you yourself did

20 not recognise because, as you used to say, through his policy - and you

21 say that on page 1 of your statement - that the DSK or LDK, whose head he

22 was, propagated just an illusion that Kosovo would be independent and that

23 it was necessary to move forward. Now, you --

24 JUDGE MAY: Now, shorten this question. It's quite impossible to

25 deal with a question which has lasted a minute and more. What is the

1 question?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He can answer because --

3 JUDGE MAY: No.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- he differs from other --

5 JUDGE MAY: No. There are at least two questions in that, if not

6 more. One of them was that the Albanians did not want to implement the

7 agreement.

8 Now, Mr. Haxhiu, is that right or not?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not right. We very much wanted

10 the agreement to be implemented, because if it were not, the process would

11 be radicalised and the whole -- also the level of tolerance would

12 degenerate down to zero.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I'm not talking about you personally now because you're not

15 testifying about yourself personally. I don't think you have anything to

16 testify about yourself personally. I'm asking you about the radical

17 elements who endeavoured to produce violence in Kosovo. Now, were they

18 opposed to the fact that Rugova's agreement should be successful, that the

19 agreement signed by Ibrahim Rugova should be successful? Yes or no.

20 A. I don't know what you're implying by "radical" forces. I know

21 that we were all concerned for the agreement to be carried out, because

22 this would show -- we see that the political process in Kosova was

23 radicalised and the intervention against the students was fatal for the

24 future of Kosova. It was the students who restored a fragment of the

25 Albanians' lost dignity and disputed the occupation that you imposed in

1 1989.

2 Q. Very well. You're now under occupation. You were not occupied

3 then. But you were under a similar occupation during Mussolini and during

4 Hitler. There's not much difference. Probably you felt free in those

5 days as well.

6 JUDGE MAY: This is a very long way from the indictment, indeed,

7 and it's time to adjourn.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Page 3 of your --

10 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's time for the break.

11 Mr. Haxhiu, just to clarify one matter, you have clarified it in

12 your second statement: Your arrest, I take it, and the various meetings

13 took place in 1998; is that right? Not 1997.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It took place in 1997.

15 JUDGE MAY: That's the date of the first protest, is it?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 1st of October, the police

17 entered the premises of Koha Ditore.

18 JUDGE MAY: That is 1997.

19 THE WITNESS: 1997, yes.

20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much.

21 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.

22 JUDGE MAY: During the adjournment, Mr. Haxhiu, don't speak to

23 anybody about your evidence until it's over, please.

24 THE WITNESS: Okay.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I ought to clarify the ruling on Dr. Baccard

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1 and make it plain that if you want to recall that witness, then it must be

2 done by way of an addendum to his report served in the normal way and so

3 everybody has the time to consider it and prepare, and in due course, if

4 you want to do it, we'll consider whether we'll allow him to be recalled

5 or not.

6 MR. NICE: Thank you.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. You've got three-quarters of an

11 hour more, which means you'll have nearly an hour and a half with this

12 witness.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So another three-quarters of an

14 hour; is that right?

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let me try and be

17 expeditious in covering these remaining questions that I have.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. So after this agreement that we referred to a moment ago, you

20 continued to fear a radicalisation of the situation with respect to the

21 attitude of the Albanians towards that agreement and in respect to Kosovo

22 in general; isn't that so?

23 A. Yes, that is right.

24 Q. After these demonstrations that you referred to, you said that it

25 was clear that there was no possibility for a peaceful settlement in

1 Kosovo with the Serbs and that that was the view of the Albanians. You

2 find that on page 3 of your statement.

3 A. Yes. I said after the unnecessary brutal intervention of the

4 police against the students who were staging peaceful demonstrations, then

5 I didn't see any other way out than the further radicalisation of the

6 situation in Kosova. This was my personal view and analysis of the

7 situation.

8 Q. Very well. Do you personally believe, because you say that was

9 your personal opinion, that the student demonstrations in which four

10 persons were taken into custody and when there were certain physical

11 contacts between the police and the students, do you believe that that was

12 the moment when the Albanians in Kosovo were beginning the war? Was

13 really that sufficient for the war to begin?

14 A. I think that a process was needed to tackle the radicalisation of

15 the situation. But in fact, there was a brutal intervention of the

16 police. That was not the only case that contributed to the radicalisation

17 of the situation. I can encounter here -- I can enumerate here many

18 instances to prove that the radicalisation of the situation started from

19 1987 until the time came for the emergence of the KLA.

20 Q. Very well. But if on the 1st of October, 1998, you organised the

21 demonstrations with the aim of implementing the agreement on education,

22 tell me, then, why do you think there were demonstrations in Pristina and

23 other places in Kosovo? For example, in 1981, which lasted for quite some

24 time, when at the time 800 elementary and secondary schools were working,

25 at the time more than 600 Albanian, more than ten faculty departments with

1 separate tuition --

2 JUDGE MAY: We're now going backwards. Just one moment.

3 Mr. Haxhiu, just one moment.

4 Mr. Milosevic, we're now going backwards in time, and we've had

5 another beginning of a question.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm trying to link certain things

7 up, and my direct question is:

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Is it true, then, that the aim of the demonstrations on the 1st of

10 October, 1998, was not the education agreement but, as in 1981, Kosovo

11 Republic or an independent Kosovo? Yes or no.

12 A. I didn't say that the participants in these demonstrations did not

13 aspire to independence at a point in time but I said that they protested

14 being banished from entering the premises and protesting the insult

15 perpetrated against them for a long time. I can talk to you about the

16 demonstrations staged on the 1st of October.

17 Q. Very well. You also stated that in those days, that is in 1998,

18 you had not even heard of the so-called KLA, and you make no mention of it

19 in your statement. Do you know what kind of crimes and do you know of any

20 examples of terrorism carried out by this organisation that you hadn't

21 heard of on the 5th [sic] of October, 1998, which you indicated as being

22 the date when the conflict in Kosovo started?

23 A. I didn't say that I didn't know anything about the KLA in 1998,

24 but I said up to the moment that the students started their

25 demonstrations, I knew nothing about the existence of the KLA.

1 Q. So that is October 1998.

2 A. No. It is October 1997, not 1998. The demonstrations started in

3 1997, October the 1st, but the education agreement was signed in 1996.

4 Q. The 1st of September, yes.

5 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me. When was the date when you were arrested?

6 Is it 1997 or 1998?

7 THE WITNESS: 1997.

8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So up to then, up to those demonstrations, you hadn't heard of a

11 single killing, kidnapping, or any other crime or act of terrorism by the

12 KLA, and you hadn't heard of the KLA.

13 A. Yes, indeed. I never heard of KLA up to the 26th of November,

14 1997. That was when I heard and I wrote for the first time my first

15 article on the KLA, titled "Someone Has Been Fighting in Lubovec."

16 Q. Very well. You have devoted almost half of your statement to

17 conversations that, together with Bakalli, as you say, had with people

18 from the State Security Service. In those conversations, did you

19 represent anyone in your organisation or were you participating as an

20 ordinary citizen?

21 A. I was arrested. I was interrogated in the building of the state

22 security. After many questions, which lasted for two hours, then one of

23 those present there asked me, "Is there someone from your side - from the

24 Albanian side, that is - who can be our interlocutor?" I answered that,

25 until now, all the dialogue and conversations conducted have been

1 unsuccessful because they have been conducted by people who have been on

2 the sidelines, and if you are really serious about holding a dialogue with

3 us, then I can take civic courage and I will assume also my personal and

4 public responsibility to find out -- to ensure that we establish such a

5 dialogue, for many reasons. We had the example of Bosnia, Croatia, the

6 murders there --

7 JUDGE MAY: Just try -- Mr. Haxhiu, just try and concentrate on

8 the questions. So the answer is that you were not representing anyone in

9 an organisation but participating as an ordinary citizen.

10 THE WITNESS: As a citizen. I had a responsibility for that.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You also said that in those conversations -- about those

13 conversations, you regularly informed Mr. Hill, in the US embassy in

14 Belgrade, and Mr. Norman, also a diplomat in the US embassy with whom you

15 cooperated throughout that time.

16 A. We did not cooperate. We had friendly contacts with the aim that

17 we prevent the outbreak of a war in Kosova. That was our goal. I don't

18 like the play of words of saying "collaboration" so it sounds rather more

19 like a Balkan conspiracy than something which is really of interest to

20 discuss. It is true that I had discussed this issue with Hill, Bujar

21 Bukoshi, Fehmi Agani and others, but we discussed a crucial issue; how to

22 stop the war from breaking out in Kosova. That was the crux of the

23 matter. And each and every one were interested to prevent that from

24 happening, all these people that I mentioned.

25 Q. Very well. So you're explaining this as not being cooperation but

1 friendly relations, and I understand your explanation. But let us now

2 clarify this point regarding your arrest.

3 You said that you were taken to the premises of the State Security

4 Service. However, it emerges from your statement that this was an

5 information interview. So you were not arrested.

6 A. It was right. When I was taken there, I realised that it was an

7 information talk which, in Kosova, was a common phenomena. Tens of

8 journalists underwent similar procedures like me. And I may say that

9 those who were with me in that room behaved very correct with me.

10 Q. So they treated you correctly. They had this conversation with

11 you to gain information. You were not arrested. They were courteous with

12 you, as you yourself say in your statement, the only thing was that you

13 were a bit nervous.

14 A. Yes, that's it, because in light of the prevailing situation and

15 the way I was taken from the editorial office premises, it was rather

16 aggressive. The police came there to fetch me. But when we actually

17 arrived there in that building, they were, as I said, very correct towards

18 me.

19 Q. Very well. So whatever I have just said is correct. The

20 policemen told you clearly then that they didn't want any conflict, that

21 they wanted to take steps to avoid a conflict and so on.

22 A. Yes. That was my impression.

23 Q. Please answer my direct question now: Did they ask you to

24 establish contact or was this something that you offered to do?

25 A. No. They simply asked me if we could find the proper way to start

1 negotiations. I promised that I will try, and then, for this, I needed to

2 have my civic, public responsibility and courage, because in fact there

3 was no one to stand up for Kosova. And we who knew, who were informed of

4 what was going on, who were working in the newspaper, we received

5 information from Serb, Albanian, international sources and we knew that it

6 was impossible to undertake an uprising against a state machine and a

7 military power like Serbian one was. And having this civic responsibility

8 and courage, I said -- I promised them that I will see what I can do,

9 because I was someone who had some influence, and I worked in an

10 institution which was independent, like the Koha Ditore is. And Veton

11 Surroi was another editor who also had a great influence at that time.

12 So therefore, this was why I accepted to try and find someone who

13 could negotiate between the Serbs and the Albanians. So I think I had

14 enough arguments to try and do that.

15 Q. Will you please give me a direct answer to my question, and it is

16 a very simple one with a yes and no: Were you a cooperator of the state

17 security or not?

18 A. No, never. I only met your security service people three times;

19 once in Bakalli's home, once in Brezovica, and another time when they took

20 me and interrogated me.

21 Q. Very well. And they told you explicitly that they wanted to

22 assist in establishing a dialogue to avoid a conflict; isn't that right?

23 That's what you say?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. However, you said that the situation was extremely tense and that

1 you were afraid of an open dialogue precisely because of the existence of

2 extremist groups which would not approve of such a dialogue; isn't that

3 right?

4 A. We tried. I gave you the reasons why I tried to do; because of

5 what had happened in Bosnia, because the Serbian state was very powerful

6 militarily, and there was no one to stand up for Kosova. We had tens of

7 arguments why we should enter into dialogue, and none of -- no arguments

8 against it. This was why we had -- we felt we had to start dialogue. And

9 I think this dialogue did not start because people around you didn't want

10 that to happen.

11 Q. Yes. But you say on page 4 that you were afraid of a frank

12 dialogue because of extremist groups.

13 A. I think that in April or May 1997, efforts were made to establish

14 this dialogue with the Serbs. Mr. Agani tried to do with that Mr.

15 Duhanovic and Tanic, but efforts were unsuccessful in New York and in

16 other attempts made. Since the intervention against the students had

17 provoked a revolt, a large scale revolt in Kosova every open form of

18 dialogue in Belgrade or Prishtina we thought would be unsuccessful. I

19 stated this at the peace institute in the United States, the State

20 Department, Voice of America, in Serbian/Croatian language in an interview

21 I gave to that radio.

22 Q. I understand, but I was just drawing your attention to what you

23 said, that you were afraid of a frank dialogue because of the existence of

24 extremist groups. That is in your statement.

25 JUDGE MAY: He's given his explanation. Let's move on.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. So you attended the conversations conducted by Stanisic with

3 Bakalli and you.

4 A. Yes. But before that, we held another meeting with Gajic and

5 Hadic, whom we never invited nor asked to come, but they offered to come,

6 thinking -- we thought that Mr. Stanisic is part of the group. But when

7 we saw them coming to Bakalli's home, we couldn't turn them back.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Haxhiu, just deal with the questions you're asked,

9 please.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Did Stanisic make any threats against you at those meetings or was

12 he -- did he treat you decently and enter into a dialogue with you?

13 A. [Previous translation continues]... Hadic were very severe with

14 us. I think they came to Bakalli's home to show their force. They

15 referred to projects which were shocking to us. Stanisic was something

16 else.

17 Q. So Stanisic did not threaten you.

18 A. No, he didn't. Only Hadic kept pointing his finger at me.

19 Q. I'm talking about the meeting with Stanisic. Very well. So

20 Stanisic did not threaten you with any kind of violence against the

21 Albanians. Isn't that right?

22 A. Let me go back and make a digression. Stanisic said that we won't

23 accept the option you offered, which was Kosova Republic. He said there

24 is no one around Milosevic who will accept this alternative, and I am

25 saying you that if you pursue it, we will end up in war. That was

1 expressly what Stanisic said. But he also said that, "I will personally

2 see to it that you have your university and academy. But as to the status

3 of Kosova Republic, forget about that. There are nationalist people

4 around Milosevic who will invoke a war if you ask for that."

5 Q. Please. Please. I asked you a very clear question. Stanisic did

6 not threaten you with any kind of violence against the Albanians during

7 those interviews.

8 JUDGE MAY: He has given his answer.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I am asking this because he is

10 the only participant apart from Mr. Bakalli, Mr. May. And Bakalli

11 explained here that Stanisic allegedly threatened them.

12 JUDGE MAY: You put the matter -- you put the matter to him and he

13 has --

14 Just one moment.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes.

16 JUDGE MAY: And he's answered in the words which Stanisic used.

17 Now, that is an answer to the question.

18 Now, Mr. Haxhiu, what do you want to add, briefly?

19 THE WITNESS: Just I want to answer this: [Interpretation] Mr.

20 Bakalli said here that not Stanisic but Gajic and Hadic said -- and

21 threatened 600 and -- 463 villages which would be burnt, "If you did not

22 give up the options you put forward." Stanisic did not mention the burnt

23 villages, but it was the two representatives who came at the meeting with

24 Stanisic. I can say that they were both fat bureaucrats, and their

25 position was a stupid one.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Very well. But Stanisic was the main speaker, not they, and he

3 did not make any threats to you, and we can confirm that and move on.

4 To go back to Koha Ditore, you say that in March 1999, it was

5 punished. On the 22nd of March, it was fined 500.000 dinars. You called

6 this a disgrace for the international minister, who started proceedings in

7 the court in which you were fined; isn't that so?

8 A. I was sentenced to four -- 435.000 marks equivalent in dinars,

9 and I consider this to be a disgrace for a minister of information. More

10 over, the judge who sentenced me told me that he was obliged to give me

11 the sentence because this had come from Belgrade. And this was the main

12 issue for me, because he had no evidence at all.

13 Q. It says that you were fined 500.000 dinars. That is what you told

14 the Beta agency.

15 JUDGE MAY: What page?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us ask the witness.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Were you fined 500.000 dinars?

19 JUDGE MAY: No. I want to find it in the statement.

20 THE WITNESS: Mr. May, in the second statement --

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Isn't this a statement on his part

22 when he says it is correct that he was fined 500.000 dinars?

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we will get on better, if you are

24 cross-examining on a statement, if you tell the Court where it is that

25 you're referring to. It's fair to the witness, but it's also important

1 that we can follow the points that you're trying to make.

2 Now, I've yet to find where this is.

3 MR. NICE: Can I help? The addendum has a reference to the fine

4 on the second page, the third paragraph.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

6 Yes, go on.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. The witness has

8 confirmed that he was fined 500.000 dinars.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. And as far as I was able to understand from information I

11 received, 410 was the fine for your newspaper and 110 you personally.

12 A. I don't know what the dinar equivalent is, but that seems to be

13 accurate.

14 Q. So 500.000 dinars, the equivalent in German marks. If you

15 remember in 1999 the rate of exchange was 13 dinars to one German mark, so

16 it could have been a couple of tens of thousands of marks. Isn't that so?

17 So not 200.000 marks, as it says here, if I said it -- if I saw it

18 correctly. Whether it is in the addendum or somewhere else, I don't know,

19 I'm not sure.

20 Yes, in the addendum.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we have the point. We have -- we have the point.

22 Now, let's move on.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So we've cleared that up as well. The newspaper was fined because

25 of articles it carried, and the media wrote that the proceedings were

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1 instituted because the article provoked a national intolerance. Isn't

2 that right?

3 A. Information we got from the court, that is true, but we don't know

4 with what article we incited racial hatred.

5 Q. So you were punished for provoking national intolerance and

6 hatred, and in your statement to the Beta agency, you called it a disgrace

7 for the minister of information of Serbia. Isn't that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So less than a year after that, on the 9th of February, 2000, the

10 head of the civilian mission in the UN, Mr. Kouchner, issued a decree,

11 saying that anyone who publicly provokes hatred, conflict, or intolerance

12 between ethnic groups will be fined heavily, up to a prison term of five

13 years, and in special circumstances, it can go up to eight years, and if

14 it is systematically done, up to ten years of prison. So I assume you're

15 familiar with that decree.

16 How then do you feel as an intellectual, a journalist, a free

17 journalist, a fighter for the freedom of the press, consider this fine of

18 a couple of thousand German marks, you call this a disgrace, and here you

19 have this same matter sanctioned by --

20 JUDGE MAY: This is turning into a speech. Now, what is the

21 question? Put it shortly.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. The question could roughly be the following: How did it happen

24 that in less than a year you should be transformed to such an extent that

25 the fine of 400.000 dinars for you -- for your newspaper and 110.000

1 dinars for you personally, you call it a disgrace, and a decree that

2 provides for punishment up to ten years you consider acceptable?

3 A. The question of Kouchner has never been the means to punish any

4 journalist because there has never been any need, just as no Serbian

5 government ever sentenced Hashim Thaci for his news conferences. And we

6 reported Hashim Thaci's news conferences in our newspaper. So why should

7 I be convicted for carrying them in the paper?

8 JUDGE MAY: We're now moving into the realms of irrelevance. If

9 you want to ask him about that particular incident, you can, but trying to

10 compare it with other matters does not assist. I suggest we move on.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us move on so as not

12 to waste time.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Is it true that you were informed about the beginning of the

15 bombing and that you then went to Tetovo, Macedonia, and continued to

16 publish your newspaper there?

17 A. To tell the truth, after the 18th of March, I wore a shirt reading

18 "NATO, just do it." And even today, it seems to me incomprehensible why

19 we didn't sign Rambouillet and --

20 JUDGE MAY: You were asked, Mr. Haxhiu, about going to Tetovo and

21 continuing to publish. Now, will you please deal with that question and

22 that alone.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I left Kosova on the 2nd of

24 April, and I was in a cellar in Kodra e Diellit neighbourhood, and there

25 were -- with 30.000 inhabitants of that neighbourhood. We were all

1 expelled on the same day, with a family and a child whom I did not know,

2 and we travelled to Tetovo by car and came out in Macedonia. In

3 Macedonia, I organised the newspaper Koha Ditore in exile, and this was

4 distributed to the refugees in the camps in Macedonia and in Albania.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. We finally got an answer to my question. You fled to Macedonia

7 and you continued to publish the newspaper in Macedonia; isn't that right?

8 A. I didn't flee. I was expelled. The whole neighbourhood was.

9 JUDGE MAY: Let us not argue about that. He said he was expelled.

10 It's quite plain.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Only five days after the beginning of the NATO aggression on the

14 29th of March, there was a report that you had been killed. Do you

15 remember that?

16 A. Yes. I saw it on television when I was in the cellar. And I

17 think it was Komodor Velbi [phoen] who made a statement saying that, in

18 Kosova, Fehmi Agani, Baton Haxhiu and three other intellectuals had been

19 executed. I heard the report as other people did. I don't know where the

20 information came from.

21 Q. Very well. My question is: At the time, you were in Macedonia,

22 and on the 7th of April --

23 A. No, no, no. No. On the 29th, NATO stated that I was dead, at a

24 news conference. I at that time was in a cellar in Kodra e Diellit in

25 Prishtina, with three families.

1 Q. On the 7th of April, you stated for the independence that you

2 could not deny the report on the radio because you had to hide for five

3 days in a basement in Pristina. That's what you stated. And if on the

4 7th of April you were already in London and you made yourself heard in

5 London, does that mean that you went to London straight from that cellar

6 or did you first go to Macedonia?

7 A. After the cellar, we were four days in the hills near the border

8 with Tetovo, and we left Kosova, and on the next day I went to Germany and

9 met German Foreign Minister Mr. Fischer, and immediately from Germany I

10 flew to London and met Mr. Cook with a group of intellectuals, and then

11 until the 18th of April I went to France and met the French Foreign

12 Minister. And I didn't stay a single day in Macedonia after arriving

13 there.

14 Q. When did you deny this false NATO report that you had been

15 executed by the Serbs? When did you deny that report?

16 A. I denied this on the 6th or the 7th of April on Deutsche Welle, at

17 the 1530 broadcast, because the telephone links with Prishtina were cut

18 and it was impossible to phone. And third, I was very frightened of

19 announcing that I was alive. This is obvious.

20 Q. All right. What you want to say -- what you're saying is that you

21 were late in denying it, not because you were saving credibility of NATO

22 information, these false ones, but because physically you weren't able to

23 make a statement earlier, before the 7th of April?

24 A. It seems a rather sad statement to make, but everybody in Kosova

25 at that time was dead. We were impotent, in cellars, and with no idea of

1 what would happen to us. Anybody who was announced as being dead, this

2 was a useful and relevant kind of information at this time.

3 Q. All right. Tell me this: In what capacity were you in the state

4 of Virginia in July 2000; as a member of the delegation of Albanians or as

5 a journalist? In what capacity?

6 A. There were two meetings, in Eli House in Washington and at

7 Lansdowne.

8 Q. I was just asking you in what capacity.

9 A. I represented civil society. I have the documents with me, and

10 you can see what I presented in -- at Eli House and at Lansdowne.

11 Q. All right. On the 26th of May, 1999, you took part, in the throes

12 of the bombing in Yugoslavia, in Ljubljana at a meeting called Who is that

13 Singing There? It was the fund opened by the association of Slovenia

14 while your paper was coming out in Macedonia, and at that time you praised

15 the NATO bombing; is that right? You supported it.

16 Now, do you consider, Mr. Haxhiu, with all these activities of

17 yours, that you were a part of the scenario not to support any kind of

18 negotiations or, rather, to give a pretext for the NATO pact aggression

19 against Yugoslavia? Do you consider that you were part of that scenario

20 and a participant in that scenario?

21 A. Can I ask something? Why did not you, the Serbian delegation --

22 JUDGE MAY: Can you just try and deal with his questions. What is

23 suggested, it appears, is that you were a part of -- part of a scenario,

24 it's described, that was set up, which seems to be some sort of conspiracy

25 which was set up to give a pretext for the NATO aggression, as it's

1 called, against Yugoslavia. Now, was there any conspiracy, plan, or

2 pretext of that sort?

3 A. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. This is the Balkan mentality.

4 People in the Balkans always think of conspiracies. Life in the Balkans

5 is a conspiracy. And --

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. All right. Not to waste time. You said no, so let's move on.

8 Now, at the time you're describing on page 5 of your statement,

9 you say: "It was clear to all the Albanians that to demand full

10 independence could lead to war and that moderate Albanians had the

11 position that to demand independence can lead to war."

12 A. We considered that the problem of the status of Kosova would be

13 solved by a process, and the insistence on immediate independence led to

14 conflicts, and we asked for a process in a very sophisticated and

15 continual fashion, and indeed a dignified manner.

16 Q. All right. You indicate the existence of great demands for

17 independence and that an obstacle to the public negotiations was fear of

18 extremist groups therefor, that is to say groups in favour of the use of

19 violence in order to achieve their political goals; is that right or not?

20 A. I would like to explain. Please do not take matters out of

21 context. We are not dealing with extremist forces here or the threat of

22 extremist forces. We are dealing with your lack of will and your -- the

23 lack of will on your staff to solve the problem of Kosova. That's clear.

24 You personally dramatised and made an icon out of Kosova as a problem, and

25 the obstacle was here.

1 Q. All right. So what I'm claiming is not correct; is that it?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Very well. Now, as you mentioned the Koha Ditore paper, is it

4 correct that Ibrahim Rugova called upon the citizens of Suva Reka to join

5 the KLA and give contribution to the fund to finance the KLA and that this

6 was in the summer of 1998 in that paper, through that paper?

7 A. Rugova did not like to mention the KLA, and Rugova mentioned the

8 KLA after the war, and this statement does not exist.

9 Q. But in the talk you said you had with the representatives of the

10 security service, as far as I was able to understand on page 7, last

11 paragraph, they mentioned armed Albanians fighting against the state; is

12 that right?

13 A. The KLA was not mentioned. Armed groups were mentioned.

14 Q. Fighting against the state. Well, the KLA is the so-called KLA

15 because it was a terrorist organisation, in fact. That's quite clear.

16 A. That's your idea. I think that the KLA was the product of the

17 incessant repression by the Serbian state, and a group that, in a way --

18 JUDGE MAY: We're not going to go into that. We're not going to

19 go into that for the moment, the various characterisations. You were

20 asking about the meeting. Yes.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. All right. You say at the end of 1977 [sic], no Albanian wanted

23 to accept any kind of autonomy or any kind of negotiation except about

24 independence; is that right?

25 A. Right.

1 Q. So in 1997.

2 A. Right.

3 Q. Very well. The ultimatum for an independence was something that

4 every Albanian wished for, and you knew that any solution to the status

5 quo of Kosovo would lead to an open conflict, and you talk about that in

6 the appendix to -- addendum to your statement, and it is the Prosecution

7 number 030363047; is that right?

8 A. Could you put the question again? Because it's not very clear to

9 me.

10 Q. Well, it has to do with the fact that you said that no Albanian

11 wanted to accept anything but independence; is that right? And then --

12 A. There were -- there was an element of flexibility in this, but

13 there was not a lot of courage.

14 Q. All right. Through violence, then. And that conflict is

15 something that you wished for and wished to provoke. Is that right or

16 not?

17 A. Who?

18 Q. With some structures in the West. Is that right or not?

19 A. No, no. No, no. This is ridiculous.

20 Q. It isn't. All right. Now, it was your position that regardless

21 of who was at the head of Serbia, that the problem was in fact Serbia and

22 that it was the Serbian mentality when it came to the relationship towards

23 Kosovo. So your position was that I was created by Serbia.

24 A. Yes. There was an article I published in a book called "Kosova"

25 in Washington --

1 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. All right. You've answered my question.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Haxhiu, we're getting away from the indictment.

5 Mr. Milosevic, your time is coming to an end. You can ask one

6 more question.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have five more minutes, as far as

8 I can see here, Mr. May.

9 JUDGE MAY: No, you haven't. You have one more question and then

10 you will have had your 45.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I must now refer to the addendum to the statement in English that

13 I received last night, with just a few points, just a few points, please.

14 I'm not going to take up much time in discussing it.

15 So you said that you saw me in Slovenia in 1990 and you were among

16 a group of journalists when there was the conference of six

17 representatives of the republics of the former Yugoslavia.

18 A. We were just this kind of distance from one another.

19 Q. All right. As a journalist asking questions, then. And you say

20 here that you asked me a question, and it was: "When would Kosovo

21 Albanians be handed self-determination in Kosovo Republic?" That's what

22 it says here in the statement.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, a moment ago when you were talking, you said that you had

25 asked me, "When are you going to leave behind the chauvinist positions and

1 give us Albanians the right to self-determination," et cetera, et cetera,

2 which is something that you don't make mention of in your statement and

3 I'm sure you couldn't have asked me something like that at the time using

4 those words and that language but let's go back --

5 A. Of course look at the transcript, because you are -- a hundred per

6 cent you were asked this question.

7 Q. All right. Now, please, do you consider that national minorities,

8 that ethnic minorities in any country can, by expressing their rights to

9 self-determination, secede from that state?

10 A. This is a dogmatic view. I don't think we should dwell on this.

11 JUDGE MAY: The views of the witness are not relevant. Now,

12 you've got one more question.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. All right. Do you know how many European states would fall apart

15 if their national minorities had the right to self-determination?

16 JUDGE MAY: If those are the questions you're going to ask, I'm

17 bringing this to an end.

18 Mr. Kay, have you any questions?

19 No. Mr. Milosevic, you've had more than enough chance.

20 Yes, Mr. Kay.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have three more minutes, and it

22 refers to --

23 JUDGE MAY: No. I'm going to ask Mr. Kay if he has any questions.

24 MR. KAY: Yes.

25 Questioned by Mr. Kay:

1 Q. I'm looking at the second statement of the witness, served 22nd

2 May, and I'm looking at the passage which reads as follows. I'll read it

3 out for your benefit, Mr. Haxhiu. "It is my opinion that the birth of the

4 KLA was the product of Serbian repression towards Albanians, of inert

5 international policy, and of Ibrahim Rugova's desire to preserve the

6 status quo. After the Prekaz massacre in 1998, the KLA grew from a very

7 small number to more than 20.000 men under arms."

8 And it's that matter that I want to ask you questions about. Do

9 you understand? It seems that there was a rapid growth of the strength of

10 the KLA from 1998 to 1999. Is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. When you say that there were 20.000 men under arms, in what

13 context do you mean that? Twenty thousand as a military force or 20.000

14 dispersed between military and living as civilians? Can you explain that

15 to the Court?

16 A. I may explain it. In 1997, when I wrote an article in my

17 newspaper, I didn't see more than 100, let's say, KLA soldiers. Following

18 the Prekaz and Likoshan massacres, the revolt spread out all over Kosova

19 and everyone thought it could find solutions by taking to the mountains

20 and they rallied around this armed group which was called KLA.

21 We think that this was the first step to restitute a lost dignity

22 and fie the occupation, Serb occupation of Kosova. And the growth in

23 number of the KLA is due to the murders perpetrated against children,

24 women, elderly. This is the response of every Albanian who thought that

25 some resistance should be put up to the Serb regime.

1 Q. You've given us a lot of background there. I'm interested in

2 detail. So please don't repeat the background again as we waste time.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. We understand what you would say, all right? So 20.000 men, then,

5 is that men in the hills, with weapons? Is that what you mean? Not

6 citizens living in villages? How do you put that figure of 20.000?

7 A. A group of journalists, international journalists, and some of us

8 visited the mountains near Malisheva. There was a burial ceremony there.

9 We saw a long line of people -- of soldiers and males who were waiting to

10 be -- to join the KLA. I can't say accurately whether -- if there was --

11 if there were 20.000 people, but something like that. It was in May 1998.

12 Q. Twenty thousand men under arms, and presumably the support for the

13 KLA, including those not under arms, you would put as a bigger figure

14 again?

15 A. I didn't say that all of them were armed, but some of them were

16 sympathisers. Some were members of the KLA. Some were dressed in

17 civilian clothes, some of them were dressed in military uniforms and with

18 the KLA logo.

19 Q. Thank you. You answered my last question there.

20 MR. NICE: A few matters arising in relation to the questions

21 asked by Mr. Kay.

22 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

23 Q. The restoration of dignity by the KLA - it's also in the second

24 statement you made - what had removed the dignity of Kosovo Albanians?

25 A. The dignity of the Albanians was broken. They were debased in

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1 Kosova. They started in 1987. Just to give you some examples,

2 constitutional amendments --

3 Q. Very short.

4 A. The constitutional amendments by force, the isolation of 300

5 intellectuals, banishing students from entering school premises,

6 systematic repression, and the entry of police forces in every house,

7 failing to implement the education agreement, the generation of the

8 political process in Kosova, the fleeing of 500.000 Albanians from Kosova

9 up to 1997 because they didn't find employment there, and the brutal

10 intervention against the students; all this led up to the establishment of

11 the KLA which in some way restored our dignity and contested the

12 occupation, Serb occupation of Kosova.

13 Q. Thank you. Back to a few questions arising from questions of the

14 accused. It was suggested at one stage that you had been ready to opt for

15 violence. Just yes or no, had you personally been ever ready to opt for

16 violence?

17 A. No, never. Never were we in favour of violence. We always were

18 in favour of peaceful solutions. I have done this also in my site that I

19 have opened on the Internet to promote Serb/Albanian dialogue.

20 Q. You were anxious at one stage in the questioning to say something

21 about the Albanian language television programme. I'd like you to confine

22 your answer to one sentence and preferably a short one: What was the

23 characteristic of the Albanian language television output that you found

24 unsatisfactory?

25 A. I think when it -- the television was closed and replaced by the

1 Albanian speakers. I don't know where they found those people, but the

2 syntax of the Albanian language they used was outdated, incomprehensible,

3 and the translations were absolutely translations using a Serb syntax.

4 Q. Was it an output that was likely to impress and cheer Albanian

5 listeners or not?

6 A. This was done in the framework of a Goebbels plan initiated by

7 Serb nationalists and translated in Albanian by Albanian speakers who were

8 working in the Radio Television of Prishtina.

9 Q. The man Tanic, you spoke of his being involved in negotiations. To

10 what degree was he a serious participant in these negotiations?

11 A. Tanic was -- we were together with Mr. Tanic and a group of Serbs

12 in 1992 in Orid [phoen] at a conference organised by Boris Vukobrad, in

13 Paris. I never met that person ever since, but the way he talked about the

14 problems seemed -- gave me the impression that he was well-informed about

15 the situation and the Kosova issue because he had a friend in Belgrade who

16 was an Albanian journalist, and --

17 Q. [Previous translation continues]... was he actually -- was he

18 participating in the discussions in a serious way?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it correct in answer to a question from His Honour Judge Kwon,

21 a detail about --

22 A. Mr. Nice, [Interpretation] he was -- Mr. Mihajlovic

23 and Tanic kept constant contact with Fehmi Agani as of 1993, and as the

24 man who kept the contacts between them was Farim Strihiu [phoen], an

25 Albanian journalist in Belgrade.

1 Q. You corrected a date about your arrest, or you clarified a date

2 about your arrest. Just for the avoidance of any doubt, in your

3 statement, you speak of your understanding being that the war began on the

4 1st of October of a particular year. What year do you say it was that the

5 war really began?

6 A. Politically speaking, the war started after the intervention of

7 the Serb police against the students in the fictitious sense of the word

8 but in real terms, it started with the massacre perpetrated against

9 Likoshan.

10 Q. At the meeting with Stanisic and the two more heavily-built men

11 who made threats that you described as not serious, did Stanisic expressly

12 dissociate himself from the threats of the other two men, including the

13 man Hadic?

14 A. Stanisic was aware of all what was said by Gajic and Hadic.

15 Mr. Hadic was very arrogant, very brutal, and he turned towards me and

16 said, "If you make this public, then you will end up where you deserve."

17 Mr. Hadic -- in fact this group that is composed of two bureaucrats, was

18 very brutal.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... did Stanisic dissociate

20 himself from the threats to which they referred?

21 A. No. No, absolutely not.

22 Q. Then two last questions, one about the fine. There was a certain

23 amount of room for uncertainty, I think. You've set out in your addendum

24 statement, in Deutschmarks, a figure for how much you say the newspaper

25 was fined and how much you were fined. The accused has drawn your

1 attention to the figure of 200.000 Deutschmarks. Can you remember or tell

2 us how much the fines were?

3 A. Mr. Nice, you cannot understand the inflation rates -- rate then

4 in Yugoslavian state. Deutschmark kept fluctuating. Within a day, this

5 inflation, for example, was 40.000 -- worth 40.000 Deutschmarks that day.

6 On the next day or after two or three days, it went down to 25.000

7 Deutschmarks. So under these conditions, it's very difficult for me to

8 give a precise figure.

9 Q. But as to whether it was a very substantial sum of money, as

10 200.000 Deutschmarks would always be, or a much more modest sum of the

11 scale the accused is suggesting is reflected, what do you say? Was it a

12 substantial fine or a comparatively trivial one?

13 A. It was very high fine. Earlier on, two other newspapers in

14 Belgrade were fined. I think it was Vreme and Danas, if I'm right. I'm

15 not sure about Danas. The third newspaper to be fined and warned to be

16 closed down was Koha Ditore, but we were unable to pay that amount of

17 money.

18 Q. I think the fine has never been paid, has it?

19 A. No.

20 Q. The judge told you that he had to fine you because he was told to

21 do so by Belgrade. That's the way you put it in evidence. Did the --

22 without guessing, first of all, did the judge explain things in any more

23 detail than that or were these exactly the words he used?

24 A. I said Bajram Kelmendi was my lawyer two days before he was

25 murdered, and he addressed Mr. Kelmendi. He said, "Mr. Kelmendi, I know

1 that this is not right, not just, but I have received orders from Belgrade

2 and I have to carry out the order." Even though it was Sunday, a holiday,

3 they took us to the judge's office to communicate the decision that we

4 were fined because of an article.

5 Q. Did you - just yes or no to this, please - did you understand what

6 he meant by saying that Belgrade had given this instruction? Just yes or

7 no.

8 A. Yes, we understood.

9 Q. Right. It was just yes or no. Would that understanding be based

10 on previous experience of a similar kind or would it be based on a general

11 understanding of the political situation at the time?

12 A. I think that there were similar occasions going on -- cases going

13 on in Kosova courts.

14 Q. Do you have - and again just yes or no - do you have any hard

15 evidence to show where the instructions from Belgrade were coming from,

16 whether they were coming from the judiciary, from the administration, from

17 an individual, from another body? Just yes or no, do you have hard

18 evidence to say where the instructions were coming from?

19 A. No. I can't say, but this is what he told us. "I have orders

20 from Belgrade." He didn't show us any proof or any evidence.

21 MR. NICE: I'm obviously content to go and ask the next question

22 but in the circumstances unless the Chamber wants me to, I don't think I

23 will.

24 JUDGE MAY: No.

25 MR. NICE:

1 Q. And finally, you were asked about connections to NATO at the time

2 that you'd been reported as dead when you were in fact in hiding. At the

3 time that you were in hiding, did you have any connection, practical,

4 whether by radio or otherwise, with NATO or any members of NATO?

5 A. I have never had any connections with NATO, neither did I have any

6 physical possibilities to communicate with my neighbour, let alone with

7 NATO.

8 MR. NICE: Those are all the questions I ask arising from the

9 cross-examination.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Haxhiu, up to quite recently, you were known to

12 us under a pseudonym as K28. Do you know that?

13 A. No.

14 JUDGE KWON: Didn't you apply for the protective measures?

15 A. [No translation]

16 JUDGE KWON: Were there any threats or danger in regards to your

17 testimony?

18 A. No. There has never been any threats because I've never had

19 anything to hide. Some media has written some prattle about me.

20 JUDGE KWON: If Mr. Nice could assist us.

21 MR. NICE: I'll make clarify that. I'll make inquiries and

22 clarify, perhaps after the break, and I'll certainly I'll retain the

23 witness long enough to ensure that anything that arises from the

24 clarification can be dealt with.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Haxhiu, that apart, in case there are any

2 questions about that, but apart from that, that concludes your evidence.

3 Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are

4 now free to go.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 MR. NICE: The next witness is one to whom I had hoped to speak

8 this morning before he came to give evidence. In the event, I haven't

9 done so and haven't been able to ask him a couple of questions arising

10 from his summary that I would prefer to do. I don't think it's possible.

11 And the summary has just been served. It's a rather long summary but I'm

12 happy to tell the Chamber that nearly all of the material in the early

13 pages has been covered by other witnesses and so I'll be able to go

14 through it very quickly. It's one of those statements that might

15 conceivably have been dealt with on a partial 92 bis basis but we decided,

16 in light of his position, not to. So I was going to wonder if the Chamber

17 might consider taking a slightly earlier than usual break.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. NICE: May I make a correction to something I said this

20 morning in relation to Dr. Baccard's possible giving of evidence about the

21 other report, other forensic report. I said that that evidence had been

22 disclosed. The position is that it was disclosed in full and in colour to

23 the amici on the 6th of February. At that time, a black and white copy

24 only was served on the accused because he wasn't looking at or using his

25 materials at all and it was thought better to save the colour version for

1 provision to him at a time when it became more likely to be useful to him.

2 His approach has, of course, now changed, as we now know. We will -- we

3 are in a position and will serve the colour version on him today.

4 JUDGE MAY: But as far as I understand it, Dr. Baccard's comments

5 are something knew; is that correct?

6 MR. NICE: Correct. They'll have to be the subject of a further

7 report if we decide that we wish to seek to add his evidence at a later

8 date.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, that seems to me the proper way to deal

10 with it.

11 MR. NICE: And if we do that, if we do that today, we'll be in

12 time within 30 days from now.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a seat.

21 WITNESS: ADNAN MEROVCI

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Examined by Mr. Nice:

24 Q. Your full name, please. Can we have your full -- it may be a good

25 idea if the witness puts the headphones on, I think. I know you

1 understand English.

2 A. It's okay. It's okay for me.

3 Q. Very well. Could you tell us your full name, please.

4 A. My name is Adnan Merovci.

5 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the summary that's been provided in 12

6 pages, I think it is, is one that I can deal with, I think, very summarily

7 so far as the first six or seven pages is concerned.

8 As to background, I hope I may be permitted to lead.

9 Q. Were you born in the Vucitrn area, studying electrotechnical

10 engineering at Pristina, graduating in 1981, thereafter working for the

11 Associated Bank of Kosovo in Pristina?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. In 1983, did you start compulsory military service which you

14 completed, returning to your job in the bank until 1990, when you were

15 dismissed in circumstances we'll hear about shortly? Correct?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. And as we're going to discover, you were, for several years, the

18 personal assistant to Dr. Ibrahim Rugova, the witness who we saw a few

19 weeks ago?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. By way of clarification and in order to explain why I'm skipping

22 over certain paragraphs, Your Honour, although the witness deals with the

23 Kosovo Polje events in paragraph 2, Mr. Merovci, were you actually present

24 there yourself or not?

25 A. No, I was not present personally, but I followed it in the media.

1 Q. In which case I can go to paragraph 3, the background of ethnic

2 tensions.

3 Before you lost your job, while you were still at work, in work

4 was there any deference of one side to the other? If so, how? Or of one

5 group to the other.

6 A. At the time we're talking about, that's after 1981, relations at

7 work and human relations between the Serbs and Albanians were tense. And

8 the Albanians respected the Serbs in daily life and at work. Personally,

9 I worked in an office with members of the Serbian community, and we were

10 very polite to them. I can cite only one example in a group whenever a

11 meeting was held and there was only one Serb was present, the Serbian

12 language was used so that one person in the middle of ten others should

13 not feel discriminated against.

14 Q. Paragraph 4 but over the page. Television output, did it have any

15 effect on relations between Albanian Serbs -- Albanians and Serbs? I beg

16 your pardon.

17 A. At this time, propaganda in the mass media had its effect. It was

18 propaganda dictated from above, and it was propaganda that treated the

19 Albanians as second-class citizens, and it favoured the Serbs and

20 described the Albanians as a people perpetrating injustices against the

21 Serbs. This is what it was like.

22 Q. Give us, just in a sentence, what if any would be the effect of