1 Tuesday, 11 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I begin with

8 cross-examination, I wish to inform you that yesterday, at 6.30 in the

9 evening, an associate of mine came, Mr. Tomanovic, to inform me that the

10 order of witnesses has been changed again, yet again, and that another two

11 witnesses were added. Mr. Walker was scheduled for today, and then this

12 current witness was added and then two more witnesses were added last

13 night. And I think that this is an attempt to minimise the time allotted

14 to me to cross-examine Walker, and I think that --

15 JUDGE MAY: We will ensure that that is not the case.

16 Mr. Nice, can we be assured that there will be ample time to hear

17 Mr. Walker?

18 MR. NICE: There is absolutely no intention to deprive the accused

19 the opportunity to examine Mr. Walker. My principal focus at the moment

20 is on ensuring that we can find a way of taking Mr. Walker's evidence in

21 chief as shortly as possible, by consideration of possible application of

22 92 bis to parts of it.

23 The other two witnesses to whom he refers, the witnesses who I

24 think are 92 bis witnesses, crime-base witnesses, they have been here a

25 long time already and there was considerable difficulty in retaining them

1 any longer. That's the difficulty.

2 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Provided there's sufficient time for

3 Mr. Walker, no harm will be done.

4 Yes. Now --

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, please, can you tell me, how

6 can you explain that at 6.30 two witnesses were added and I was informed

7 of it by my associate? Do you have an explanation for that?

8 JUDGE MAY: I'm not going to debate it with you, Mr. Milosevic.

9 We have a list. We were told one thing. There has been a change of

10 plan. There's nothing sinister in that. Our task is to ensure that no

11 injustice is done. No injustice is done to you so far. We will ensure

12 you have sufficient time to cross-examine Mr. Walker.

13 Now, let's go on with this witness.

14 WITNESS: SABRI POPAJ [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] You are describing not only the events in Bela

18 Crkva but also outside of it, because you also mention events in Nogavac,

19 in Mala Hoca, in Velika and Mala Krusa; isn't that right?

20 A. In Bellacerkva, in Celine, and Nagavc.

21 Q. In view of the fact that this activity of yours took place

22 precisely at the time when there was fighting going on between the forces

23 defending the country and the terrorist forces of the KLA and while the

24 bombing was going on as well, so in view of that, did you perhaps try to

25 show those who were killed during the bombing and in that fighting as

1 somebody who was a victim of a Serb crime, as you describe it?

2 A. There was no KLA in Bellacerkva ever, and all the victims were

3 civilians. There were more than 70 victims.

4 Q. But you claim that there were no civilian victims in the fighting

5 between the KLA and the police and that there were no civilian victims of

6 the NATO bombing. Is that what you're claiming?

7 A. There was no KLA, and there was -- they were all civilians. There

8 was no fighting between the KLA and the Serbs.

9 Q. All right. In your statement, on page 1, you say that you lived

10 in a compound in which there were four houses. One house was yours, two

11 of your brothers, and one of your parents; is that right?

12 A. We lived with my brothers, and all four houses belonged to us.

13 Q. How many people lived in your household?

14 A. There were 22 of us.

15 Q. And then you go on to say that you were a truck driver; is that

16 right?

17 A. I have been a truck driver, a farmer, and a shepherd.

18 Q. In view of the fact that you were a truck driver, you frequently

19 moved or travelled through the municipality. So I suppose that you were

20 well-informed and well -- you were familiar with the circumstances in

21 Kosovo; isn't that right?

22 A. I only travelled during the vegetable season, between July and

23 September, and otherwise I was involved with livestock on the Sharr

24 Mountains.

25 Q. All right. But at any rate, you moved about. And just now you

1 told us that there was no KLA in your village, whereas on page 2,

2 paragraph 4 of your statement, it says that there were some in your

3 village. There were, in fact, three members of the KLA there; is that

4 right?

5 A. There were no KLA units in our village. They were separate.

6 Q. Well, I'm not referring to units. You mentioned three

7 individuals. A previous witness from your village, Isuf Zhuniqi, claimed

8 that there were no KLA members at all in your village, and what I'm

9 interested in is what is the precise number of KLA members in your

10 village. Could you help us, please.

11 A. There is no village called Zhuniqi, but it is a family called

12 Zhuniqi. They were individuals who were involved in units of the KLA who

13 were further away, up to 15 kilometres away.

14 Q. I didn't say "village." I said that the previous witness

15 claimed -- let me repeat. I didn't mention the village. I mentioned your

16 fellow villager, Isuf Zhuniqi, who claimed that there were no KLA in your

17 village.

18 And can you tell me where this unit of yours was stationed? These

19 three people that you mentioned were apparently members of the unit that

20 was stationed 15 kilometres away. Is that right?

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, let us deal with that fairly for the witness.

22 He has not -- just a moment. He has not accepted that there was a unit.

23 He said specifically there was not a unit in the village.

24 In your statement, Mr. Popaj, you refer to three members of the

25 KLA in the village whom everybody knew. Now, those three members, where

1 were they stationed in the village?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They weren't in the village but were

3 in KLA units in Retia. I've heard about them, because I didn't actually

4 see them.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Very well. So these KLA units that you just mentioned, where were

7 they based?

8 A. I wasn't there at the unit, but I've heard that this unit was at

9 Retia.

10 Q. And who was the commander of that unit?

11 A. I don't know. I don't know.

12 Q. Yes, I understood your answer to be that you don't know. But in

13 your statement, on page 2, you say that no member of your family belonged

14 to the KLA and that you, just as the majority of residents in the city,

15 provided food and also gave funds to whom? Who did you give the money

16 intended for the KLA? Who did you give this to?

17 A. Not only our village, but all Albanians helped the KLA with food.

18 Q. I didn't ask you about that. What I'm asking is: Who did you

19 turn this over to, the food and the money?

20 A. They handed it over to the representative of the village. I was a

21 farmer and a shepherd at this time.

22 Q. To the representatives of the village. And what was your monthly

23 dues in terms of food and money? I'm referring to the dues that your

24 family was supposed to hand over.

25 A. I didn't give money. I gave flour and meat and what I wanted to

1 give.

2 Q. And what was your monthly dues?

3 A. We didn't give monthly contributions, but we gave when we wanted.

4 Q. And when was that? Was it due once a month, every three days,

5 once a week?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you're guilty of what is called

7 suggestio falsi, and you do it all the time. The witness has made it

8 quite clear that he was not required to give anything; he gave

9 voluntarily. But you insist on using the word "dues." That really is a

10 misrepresentation. Please stop it.

11 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I was going to raise separately the

12 question of the relevance of this material. I realise that there's reason

13 for not confining an accused who is representing himself too narrowly, but

14 really, these questions about the KLA have got nothing to do with the

15 case, in my respectful submission.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, the answer is this: that there is a very

18 broad relevance in the sense that it is part of the case of the accused

19 that the KLA were responsible for atrocities; indeed, it appears the

20 suggestion that they may be responsible for the ones with which this

21 witness deals, or certainly some atrocities. In those circumstances, he

22 is entitled to cross-examine about it. However, we make it plain that his

23 time is limited because of the way in which time is wasted generally in

24 this sort of cross-examination by him, and therefore the approach of the

25 Trial Chamber is to allow cross-examination, provided it has some

1 relevance, but to limit it in terms of time.

2 Yes.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Were you in Bela Crkva in 1998?

5 A. From 18th of May and until July, I was within the Sharr Mountains,

6 with cows and sheep.

7 Q. And the rest of the time you were there. All right. Do you know

8 who Xhelaj Hajda [phoen], nicknamed Toni, is?

9 A. No. He's not someone from our village.

10 Q. Do you know who was the KLA commander for the Orahovac region?

11 A. I told you I don't know him.

12 Q. Well, this is a different question. I'm asking you: Do you know

13 who the Orahovac region KLA commander was? And you are telling me that

14 you don't know who Hajda was? Does this in turn mean that Hajda was the

15 commander?

16 A. No. No. I don't know anything about this.

17 Q. Do you know about the KLA attack on Orahovac?

18 A. No. I don't know anything about this, and I haven't written about

19 it in my statement.

20 Q. And these three members of the KLA that you mention in your

21 statement, did they participate in the attack on Orahovac, together with

22 others?

23 A. How should I know? I wasn't their bodyguard to accompany them

24 everywhere.

25 Q. All right. Can you tell me who -- do you know who Skender Hoxha

1 is?

2 A. I don't.

3 Q. And during the time when you worked as a truck driver, as a

4 seasonal truck driver, did you also transport weapons or other supplies

5 for the KLA?

6 A. As I said, in 1998 I wasn't even in the village. I was with the

7 livestock in the mountains.

8 Q. Well, you were in the mountains during the summer, as you said

9 yourself, but the majority of the year, you were in the village, weren't

10 you? Where were you during the rest of the year?

11 A. I was at home, looking after my sheep. I was with the flocks.

12 Q. You say that on March 25th, at 2.00, when NATO started bombing,

13 you went into the basement of your house, together with your family. This

14 can be found on page 2, last paragraph of your statement. Is that right?

15 A. When we heard the sound of the Serbian tanks entering the village,

16 when the NATO bombing, Serbian positions above the village started

17 firing. My family and I --

18 Q. I'm asking you about this part of your statement where you say

19 that on March 25th, at 2.00, when NATO started its bombing, you went into

20 the basement, together with your family. Is that right?

21 I didn't ask you about tanks. I asked you about what you stated

22 yourself in your statement.

23 A. We heard the NATO bombing starting at 10.00 at night. But at

24 2.00, Serbian forces started firing, and then my family and I went to the

25 basement.

1 Q. I'm going to read you the last paragraph of your statement on

2 page 2. It says as follows: "When the NATO bombing commenced, my family

3 moved down into the basement of the house."

4 Let's continue on. Was your village bombed by NATO?

5 A. No, it wasn't bombed by NATO, nor were we frightened of NATO.

6 Q. So you claim that not a single bomb fell in the vicinity of your

7 village; is that right?

8 A. Not at Bellacerkva or on Xerxe or on the villages around did a

9 single NATO bomb fall.

10 Q. And do you know about anyplace in Kosovo where any bomb fell?

11 JUDGE MAY: No. He's giving evidence about his own village and so

12 any broad question is not for him.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You say that the tanks came into the centre of the village and

16 then withdrew from the village and took up positions on the hill above the

17 village. Is that right or not?

18 A. The Serbs entered the village at 2.00 and some tanks took

19 positions then. Then from the 22nd of March, there had been tanks there

20 before on a hill above Fetush Hill. And on the 25th more entered at 2.00

21 in the morning, and some went in the direction of Celine, a place called

22 the hill of Breganoli [phoen].

23 Q. Can you please explain the following: Were the tanks in the

24 village during the bombing or after the bombing they took up positions on

25 that hill?

1 A. On the 22nd of March, two days before the bombing, they took up

2 position under the home of Nahit Fetoshi and evicted the inhabitants of

3 that house from the house, and these people came to my house.

4 JUDGE MAY: You were asked about the position of the tanks during

5 the bombing. Can you tell us where they were?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course I can. The tanks

7 were positioned on a hill in the direction of Celine, and there were two

8 armoured vehicles in the schoolyard. The others went to Celine, but I

9 don't know how many there were because it was night and I couldn't see

10 them.

11 Q. You say that the police started shooting from the bunkers above

12 the roofs of the houses and that you and other residents of the village

13 started leaving the village; is that right?

14 A. We started leaving the village at 4.00 in the morning when they

15 started burning houses. They started at one end of the village. And I

16 didn't leave my home because all 80 members of my family in the yard, and

17 then we set off to go to Rogova. I went back to my house to let the

18 livestock loose.

19 Q. Was that perhaps a conflict between the police and the KLA when

20 they entered the village, when you claim that they entered the village?

21 A. I've already told you that the KLA didn't exist. There was no KLA

22 in my village. I told you before.

23 Q. But on page 3, paragraphs 2 and 3, you say that the police was

24 shooting over the tops of the houses to a target that was apparently on

25 the opposite side if they were shooting over the tops of the houses, the

1 roofs of the houses. So who were the police shooting at?

2 A. The police came up. Had police -- the police had positions on the

3 22nd of March, and 80 per cent of the people had already left, and they

4 started burning the houses of the people who had left at 5.00 in the

5 morning.

6 Q. In that same paragraph on that same page, you say that you saw

7 Serb forces opening fire on houses as they entered the village, and you go

8 on to say that the policemen used gasoline and flame-throwers. But

9 despite of that, you came back to the village to feed your livestock

10 because you didn't want to leave them unattended. Didn't you state that?

11 A. I went back to feed my livestock while the houses were burning.

12 And you could hear gunshots. And afterwards, when I had fed the

13 livestock, I went through the other houses and I heard children crying,

14 being mistreated. And then I found the family of Clirim Zhuniqi and

15 Xhemal Spahiu, from Opterusha, with 30 members of his family, and I helped

16 them to cross the river, which was deep. And they were fighting from

17 positions above the village.

18 Q. All right. I've understood that from your statement. I did not

19 ask you that.

20 Tell me, is it logical for you in a situation when, you had put

21 it, the police was setting the village on fire, was it logical for you to

22 return only to feed the cattle while they were setting the village on

23 fire?

24 A. I didn't leave the village, but I saw the people off, and I helped

25 them to leave the houses and to go in the direction of the Cergova

1 [phoen]. I didn't leave the village. I looked after the village and I

2 saw how the people were setting fire to the village. And after that, I

3 came out of the house and heard the voices of the children, which were 300

4 metres far from the house.

5 Q. A little while ago you said that you heard shooting at that very

6 same time. Where did you hear the shooting?

7 A. I heard the shooting from 2.00 a.m. until the time when they were

8 executed, the family of Clirim Zhuniqi and my family all. They didn't

9 stop the shooting until the evening in the village.

10 Q. Who were they shooting at, then, in the evening, in the village?

11 Or rather, were they shooting all over the village all day?

12 A. All day they were setting fire to the village. They didn't do it

13 only for one day, but they did it for one month in succession, displacing

14 the people and dispossessing the people of their clothes and setting fire

15 to the houses.

16 Q. So for a month they were torching your village and shooting all

17 over the village every day?

18 A. So it has been, because the last house was set to fire on the 4th

19 of May. There were 300 houses in our village, and only 6 houses were not

20 set fire to.

21 Q. And who set these houses on fire?

22 A. These houses were set on fire by your police.

23 Q. And who were they shooting at all over the village for an entire

24 month?

25 A. There were no people there. They were just shooting at random.

1 They were dispossessing the houses of the clothes. And there were three

2 trucks which were taken by the Serbs, and I have found these trucks in the

3 place called Kllokot, and I found my truck, which the others were taken by

4 the corps police.

5 Q. Just tell me one thing: Who were they shooting at when there was

6 no one in the village?

7 A. In the village, they killed the cattle. There were 5.000 cattle

8 in the village, and none of them remained alive. All the cattle was

9 executed, just like the people were executed.

10 Q. And how many people did they kill in the village while they were

11 shooting during that one month?

12 A. The people were killed on the 25th of March, and the other days

13 there was nobody in that village.

14 Q. How many of them were killed on the 25th of March?

15 A. On the 25th of March there were killed 70 persons.

16 Q. And where did you see them kill these people?

17 A. [Previous translation continues]... to the execution. I've seen

18 them killed because I was there helping the family of Clirim Zhuniqi and

19 Xhemal Spahiu. I was there with the electric pole, and there was near a

20 place for watering, and I was 80 metres far from there. And there I saw

21 the police going in the direction of the Belaja bridge, where the people

22 were executed there. Five persons of my family were executed there, and

23 the sons of my uncle. There were executed 40 persons, civilians, who,

24 after one hour, I came back with my wife and we went to the place of the

25 event, and we saw them executed, my sons, Shendet, and here I have the

1 photograph. I have the photograph of my son when I buried him. You see

2 him all in blood. Here are the two sons. And I have here the witness

3 that --

4 JUDGE MAY: Let him finish.

5 A. And here I have the documents of the son of my uncle.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. All right. So what is your assertion? How many people were

8 killed or how many people lost their lives then? Forty or seventy?

9 JUDGE MAY: He says 70.

10 A. All in all, in this village, there were 70 people killed. I can

11 also quote them with names.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Tell me, please: Since you mentioned that you saw 12 policemen in

14 different uniforms and some kind of surgical gloves -- is that correct?

15 That is in paragraph 5 on page 3.

16 A. On my part, I was on the right side of the river. I have seen 12

17 police. Whereas on the left part of the river I haven't seen how many

18 police were there, and they were paramilitary from Serbia.

19 JUDGE MAY: The question you were asked was about the plastic

20 gloves. Is it right the police were wearing plastic gloves that day?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not plastic gloves. We

22 found the gloves after we returned, and they were seen by the

23 investigators of the Tribunal.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You say, precisely, in this paragraph that I've been quoting to

1 you: "Some of them, or most of them, wore bands," et cetera, et cetera.

2 And finally, there is a sentence saying: "All of them were wearing

3 tight-fitting, white plastic-type gloves like those used by doctors." So

4 you claim that you saw policemen wearing plastic gloves, the type used by

5 doctors.

6 A. It was not me who said this, but I have met Zhuniqi with his

7 mother, who were hidden, when they were executed, and they told me that

8 there in Celine and Bellacerkva they saw the people with the gloves, and

9 there they have found the gloves and needles, and they told us about this

10 when they came back home.

11 Q. All right. All right. On the basis of what I read, it was my

12 understanding that you were describing what you had seen. But since you

13 had not seen this yourself, we can proceed. Because this is the first

14 time we hear that police or the military wear surgical gloves.

15 On page 4, paragraph 2, you say that these, as you had put it,

16 policemen, killed those 14 persons whom you had helped. Did you see them

17 kill them?

18 A. When they were executed, I saw them. I saw the police when they

19 executed them, and after they left, 100 metres from the place where they

20 executed the people, I went to that place and I saw the people being

21 executed. I went there soon after 20 minutes in the event, and then I

22 left because I couldn't stay there. And I started walking towards the

23 railway which takes you up to Prizren. When I approached the railway, I

24 heard shots from the police, from the mill of Xerxe. I fell there and I

25 stayed there. And then I saw my wife, who was taken to the rails of the

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1 railway, and she told me that my sons, my brothers, and everyone who was

2 there was executed.

3 Q. Mr. Popaj, I'm very sorry if you lost your sons, but are you sure

4 that they lost their lives during an execution, or did they lose their

5 lives in a war conflict between any kind of warring parties? It's not

6 even important what particular warring parties.

7 A. If you felt sorry, you wouldn't have accomplished this deed. But

8 this is true, because I went there. I found eight of them. And there was

9 Alban Popaj, the son of my brother; Feim Popaj, the son of my uncle;

10 Defrim Zhuniqi. And I took six of them to Hysni Popaj. In the evening,

11 Hysni Popaj died in the village at the house of Abaz Kryeziu. And Alban

12 Popaj died on the 26th, at about 1.00, whereas I buried them at 3.00 a.m.

13 Q. All right. Please, how many people were in that group there by

14 the bridge, underneath the bridge? Because you and the previous witness

15 have been speaking about the same group of people. How many people were

16 there?

17 A. Some people -- how many people have been all in all, I don't know,

18 but I know how many of them were killed because I have buried them with my

19 own hands and I have written the names of every one of them when I started

20 burying them. Twenty-seven of them. There was a massive graveyard, 36;

21 the other had 2; and the other 2 in the village Xerxe. Whereas the other

22 group of 100 metres [as interpreted], there were 6: the priest of the

23 village, the dervish of the village, and the two sons of my uncle, Agim

24 and Medi Zhuniqi.

25 Q. You say that all the time you were by some other people. Doesn't

1 it seem illogical to you that you were along with different people all the

2 time, while you left your own family on the other side?

3 A. I haven't been with other people. First of all, I was alone, and

4 then I joined my wife and my father and my mother.

5 Q. And tell me, please: Even then, during these clashes, is it your

6 claim that there was no KLA anywhere while this shooting was going on and

7 everything else that was going on?

8 MR. NICE: To pick up His Honour Judge Robinson's point, the

9 accused is doing it again. There's no evidence of clashes. There is

10 evidence of execution.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That's right, Mr. Milosevic. What the witness

12 is saying is that these were executions. There was no question of the

13 people dying as a result of some conflict.

14 Now, have you got anything else you want to put to him?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, of course I do, but the point

16 is that I cannot assume, even assume that it could be an execution.

17 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's his evidence which we're dealing with.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I understand that. I

19 understand that that is what he is speaking about.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Since the police were present all the time in the area during the

22 drive and as the tractors were returning when you went to help the

23 wounded, did your people have any problem with the police? So you took a

24 tractor to pick up the wounded and you refer to that, and you say you were

25 driving back and the police were there. Did you have any problem with the

1 police?

2 A. The police had left after they did the execution, and they went in

3 the direction of Celine. They were not present. For the truck, there was

4 my wife who went there. And with the truck there came Shemsedin Kelmendi

5 and Abaz Kryeziu, and after that, there came my wife accompanied by other

6 women. And we took all those who were alive - because we were not able to

7 take the victims - but we took the people who were alive to save their

8 lives, and there were eight of them. And we took them to the village

9 Xerxe. I just showed the names to them. It was Alban Popaj, the son of

10 my brother Remzi Popaj, Defrim Zhuniqi, and some others, and we took them

11 to the house of Abaz Kryeziu in Xerxe where his daughter was a nurse

12 there.

13 Q. All right, Mr. Popaj. You say that you went to Zrze and that you

14 bought some plastic foil and blankets. This is on page 6. Is it possible

15 that shops are open in a situation where the police, as you had put it,

16 were going about executing all Albanians?

17 A. The shops were not open, but it was -- on the 27th, all day I went

18 where I could find people in the agriculture stores, and I took the things

19 there. And I waited all day during the 27th. I made two metres of that.

20 And I prepared some glass bottles to write the names. And in the evening,

21 27th, about 9.00 p.m., there were some co-villagers of mine and some of my

22 friends to help me. And we went at 9.00 in the evening to start burying

23 36 persons in the massive graveyard. And this is what is written in my

24 declaration. I remember it very well.

25 Q. All right, Mr. Popaj. You don't have to explain things so

1 extensively.

2 Among the names of the victims, you mentioned Jusuf Popaj as

3 well. Do you know according to documents, Jusuf Popaj, on the 17th of

4 May, 1998, was mistreated by the KLA on the road between Malisevo and

5 Orahovac near the village of Dragobilje when a pistol was taken away from

6 him and nine bullets as well and that he personally reported that incident

7 to the police? Do you know about that, since you are related?

8 A. This is a big lie of yours. This is a big lie created by you,

9 because Jusuf Popaj was 70 years of age. He was a hoxha.

10 Q. I am talking about a document that we have, but let us consider

11 what you've said.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You've got about two minutes left,

13 Mr. Milosevic, so you should tailor your cross-examination.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tailor it? In terms of two

15 minutes? That's quite difficult.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You say that in the village of Nogavac - that is on page 10 - that

18 you searched the houses that were destroyed by the bombing, and you say

19 that the bombing of Nogavac was carried out by a Serb plane rather than by

20 NATO. What is your basis for claiming that?

21 A. That night from the village Xerxe, we started going with Nazim

22 Rexhepi to the village of Celine. And then when we entered Celine, there

23 came two aeroplanes which flied very low. And then after some minutes, I

24 heard four explosions of bombing, and I didn't know where this explosion

25 fell. But after three days, I heard about the right place where this

1 exploded.

2 Q. I asked you on the basis of what do you claim that that was or

3 those were, as you said, Serb aeroplanes, not NATO. So even -- so Serb

4 planes were even bombing their own territory, as you had put it.

5 A. It's because when I went there, I have heard there were many

6 people stationed there who were shooting. But we found pieces of the

7 explosion. We hid them. And KFOR took these pieces. And there were

8 letters there in Cyrillic alphabet. I found in Nagavc the sister of my

9 father killed there, and I buried her on the 6th of April. Her name was

10 Sanije Kastrati.

11 Q. And how many people were killed in that bombing?

12 A. There I don't know the exact number, but I saw that there were

13 killed eight children and three women. There were -- I couldn't stay

14 there for longer. Then I left. I saw the children there.

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Milosevic, your time is now finished.

16 Mr. Tapuskovic, have you any questions of this witness?

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have

18 only two questions precisely related to what is mentioned on page 10,

19 paragraph 4 of the English version.

20 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, when you came to the actual site, you

22 said, this is the last sentence of that paragraph: "The roof tiles and

23 windows in most of the houses in the village were broken by the

24 explosions."

25 Does that mean that these houses, that the majority of the houses

1 in the village were not hit at all and yet were without any windows or

2 roofs? Does that mean that there was a strong gust of air that blew them

3 away?

4 A. You speak about the village Bellacerkva or the other village,

5 Nagavc? I didn't understand the question.

6 Q. I'm talking about Nogavac, because you said that you went there

7 the very next morning. The very next morning with Gazmend Malsori and ten

8 other men, you went to the actual site and you saw that on the houses

9 there were no roof tiles and that there were no windowpanes.

10 A. They were, because of the bombardment, all the tiles which had

11 fallen on the floor. All of them, like the earth was trembling.

12 Q. Thank you. Just one more thing. In that village, did you see any

13 craters that the bombs had made?

14 A. We found some pieces, pieces from the bombs when we found the

15 children. We found the pieces of the bombs right there. Was it from the

16 bomb or what else? We don't know. These pieces were taken by the KFOR.

17 Q. That's not what I'm asking you. Did you see big craters ten

18 metres wide or, rather, ten metres long and seven metres wide? Did you

19 see them? Yes or no.

20 A. When I went there, I saw the people killed, and I took the people

21 out, and I didn't see anything else. Because with my own hands I have

22 buried 168 civilians in the village Bellacerkva, Celine, and Nagavc. I

23 couldn't see anything else.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

1 MR. NICE: Two things.

2 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

3 Q. The photograph that you produced is of your two sons, and I

4 thought you found them on one of them when they were buried; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes, it's so.

7 Q. And that's why it's covered in blood. Just help me with this:

8 Was it normal for the son on whose body it was found to carry a photograph

9 of him and his brother or not?

10 A. My little son Agon was there with this photograph when I buried

11 him. And perhaps before they parting he wanted to take the photo with him

12 as a souvenir in the moment when the village was set to fire. And you can

13 still see the stains of the blood. This is the photo of my two sons.

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I don't ask that it be produced as a Court

15 exhibit.

16 Q. Second point: Your statement does say, that is the statement that

17 you signed, it does say at paragraph 3 -- page 3 that when you were

18 looking at the 12 policemen at the side of the Belles stream, that they

19 had particular uniforms, and you give the colours, and that your statement

20 does go on to say, this is you speaking, apparently: "All of them were

21 wearing tight-fitting white plastic-type gloves like those used by

22 doctors."

23 Can you tell us please, just so that we know how to deal with the

24 statement, did you see that through binoculars or otherwise or not? And

25 if not --

1 A. I saw that with binoculars, the 12 police from my side, on the

2 right side. On the left side, I didn't see how many police were there.

3 And I saw them through binoculars.

4 Q. With gloves?

5 A. I saw -- I saw them executing the people at the Belles bridge.

6 Q. Did you see them with gloves or not?

7 A. Yes. They had gloves. And they took off the gloves in the middle

8 of the village Celine and Bellacerkva, and we found them afterwards when

9 we made the unburial of the people. I handed them over to the

10 investigators of the Tribunal.

11 MR. NICE: Those are the only questions I ask in re-examination.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Popaj, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

13 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, while you're changing over and we're just

17 waiting for the witnesses, towards the end of the week, probably on

18 Friday, we would wish to have a further discussion about the witness list,

19 clarifying one or two matters arising. There is also the issue of

20 Dr. Baccard's exhibit which we have yet to resolve. I don't know if you

21 want to address us on that then or not.

22 MR. NICE: I'd hoped not to be here myself on Friday. It's

23 possible I will have to be. It depends on how the witnesses map out. And

24 I can see some slippage of time this week already for reasons outside our

25 control. So I might prefer not to be here on Friday if it could be dealt

1 with either on Thursday or possibly next Monday.

2 I'm anxious to revert to the witness list, and I'm having -- I'm

3 taking steps in relation to both this part of the case and also the other

4 part of the case to have lists prepared that will, I hope, be helpful for

5 the Chamber and indeed for the accused because of his concerns about

6 preparation over the summer. My forecast is that those lists will be

7 available at about the end of the week but possibly not before. So that

8 again would suggest a Friday hearing of these issues, or possibly Monday.

9 We know that General Naumann's coming after Ambassador Walker, and

10 I know that both men have got apparent time restrictions which I'm going

11 to investigate when I go, when I leave the courtroom right now, but I

12 think it's quite likely that the witnesses listed for this week will be

13 difficult to squeeze in as it is, and there may be a small residue flowing

14 over to next Monday in any event.

15 I don't know if that helps. It probably only makes things more

16 difficult. But if there's any chance of making the Friday hearing movable

17 to allow the possibility, if all other things allow it and my not being

18 here, I would be very grateful.

19 JUDGE MAY: We can do that. We'll fix a suitable time. Perhaps

20 you'd let us know how things are getting on.

21 MR. NICE: Certainly.

22 JUDGE MAY: Could we have the witness, please.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. The Prosecution called Lutfi

25 Ramadani.

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

5 WITNESS: LUTFI RAMADANI

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

8 Q. Mr. Ramadani, I understand, sir, that you are a 58-year-old Muslim

9 of Albanian ethnicity residing in Krusha e Vogel in Kosovo. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you were originally born in the Suva Reka municipality; is

13 that correct?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Sir, how long have you lived in Krusha e Vogel?

16 A. From 1958.

17 Q. Do I understand correctly, sir, that you are married and you have

18 two surviving sons? Two other sons were killed on the 26th of March,

19 1999; is that correct?

20 A. That's right.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, it may assist if I showed from the

22 Kosovo atlas where Krusha e Vogel is. If you could turn to page 10.

23 At -- if you look on the right-hand margin, number 23, and go immediately

24 to the left to where at the top it says "70," you will see -- near where

25 those intersect, you will see Krusha e Vogel.

1 And perhaps we could just have the usher put this on the ELMO to

2 have the witness point out where his village is.

3 Q. Sir, if you would just look at that map and use the pointer and

4 point out where your village is.

5 Are you able to locate it?

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. You're pointing now to Prizren. Yes. Okay. You're now pointing

8 to - yes - Krusha e Vogel. All right. Thank you very much.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, could you also show the witness, please,

10 two photographs.

11 Q. I'm going to show you some photographs, sir, aerial photographs.

12 Do you recognise the village depicted in these aerial photographs?

13 Mr. Ramadani, is that a photograph of your village?

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps I'll move on, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. I take it you're now pointing to -- is

18 that a photograph of your village, sir?

19 A. Yes, of the village.

20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ramadani, were you interviewed by members of the

21 Office of the Prosecutor on the 20th of July of 1999, and did you give a

22 statement on that particular day?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did you give two subsequent statements on the 26th of June,

25 2001 and the 5th of October of the same year, for a total of three

1 statements?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, sir, did you appear before a presiding officer of this

4 Tribunal on the 4th of June of 2002 and have those statements read back to

5 you and given an opportunity to make some corrections, if any?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And on that date, the 4th of June, 2002, after making some

8 corrections, did you indicate to the presiding officer that those

9 statements were true to the best of your knowledge and belief?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I wonder, Your Honours, whether the package

12 of materials under 92 bis might now be given an exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Prosecutor's

14 Exhibit 226.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I now propose to read a very brief

16 summary of what is contained in that statement and follow that up with a

17 couple of questions.

18 Your Honours, as you will note from the various statements which

19 have just been marked as exhibits, this witness indicates that at about

20 4.00 in the morning on the 25th of March, 1999, his family had left their

21 house and hid in the woods due to the fact that the Serb police had

22 surrounded their village. He indicates that at this time the police

23 started to shell the village and later burned the Albanian houses. He

24 describes that the Serb forces were wearing blue MUP, or police,

25 camouflage uniforms. He describes in his statement seeing green-coloured

1 APCs and tanks positioned around the village.

2 He tells you in his statement that almost the whole population of

3 the village were gathered in the woods, near a stream, close to a

4 vineyard, where they stayed most of that day, that is, the 25th of March.

5 At about 7.00 that night, the majority of them left that location and went

6 to the house of Sejdi Batusha, due to the fact that it was cold and the

7 young children were upset and crying. The witness and his entire family

8 stayed at Sejdi Batusha's house until the following morning, the 26th of

9 March, 1999. He indicates that the shelling continued until they were

10 approached by a group of police, who told them to stay where they were or

11 they would be killed. He says that he saw police take up positions on the

12 roofs of some of the houses in that vicinity and that he observed Isen

13 Kanjusha, who was not with his group, being shot.

14 He states that the Serbs ordered Aziz Shehu to go to the woods and

15 bring back those people who were still hiding there. In his statement, he

16 then names the names of four men and four women who were brought back

17 pursuant to that order, and indicates that all of those men are now

18 deceased.

19 He further tells you in his statement that the group was ordered

20 out of the yard and onto the road, where the men were separated from the

21 women. The women were ordered to go to Lake Vermica, and prior to leaving

22 they were forced to hand over their personal belongings. He says that as

23 the group of women were leaving, escorted by some police, he saw one of

24 the policemen take several young boys out of the group and make them join

25 the group of men. In his statement, you will find that when the women

1 started to scream, they were threatened to be killed. At this point, the

2 group of men were verbally abused by a policeman wearing a black mask, who

3 was saying that someone else was going to have sex with their wives.

4 He describes how the group of men were ordered to kneel down with

5 their hands behind their heads for a considerable period of time and that

6 Adem Isufi was ordered to go around to each man and collect documents,

7 money, and car keys from them. This witness describes in his statement

8 how the group was forced to line up in columns and were taken down the

9 road in the direction of Qazim Batusha's cowshed or barn. He names some

10 of the other victims who were with him. He describes that they were

11 ordered into a two-roomed building with a central corridor and indicates

12 that he stayed in the corridor because the rooms were too crowded.

13 You will then read about how a policeman carrying a big

14 machine-gun with a round ammunition box attached to it arrived,

15 accompanied by other armed police. He then relates overhearing a

16 conversation with other police who, in response to a request as to why the

17 one policeman was late, indicated that "he would fix the problem in two

18 minutes." The witness heard the sound of a gun being cocked, and almost

19 immediately afterwards, the Serb with the machine-gun appeared in the

20 doorway and the firing started. The witness fell to the ground and other

21 villagers fell on top of him. The machine-gun firing stopped and he then

22 heard the sound of single shots. He concluded that the victims who were

23 not dead by machine-gun fire were finished with a single shot.

24 He then tells you how he heard the sound of burning and saw bodies

25 burning. The corridor filled up with smoke. He stood up and realised

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1 that there were others he knew who were still alive. He names those

2 persons in his statement and describes his escape from the barn. In his

3 26th of June, 2001 statement he produces a map and refers to the house

4 used as a barn, where over a hundred men and boys were shot and burned in

5 this incident. He states that a crippled villager, Sait Hajdari, who was

6 confined to a wheelchair, had been positioned by the Serbs in the doorway

7 in order to stop the men from escaping the cowshed. This witness had to

8 physically move Hajdari in order to escape. Having left the burning

9 building, he and other survivors fled into the woods, shot at by police as

10 he ran, and finally escaped.

11 I now wish to turn, if I may, to two photographs.

12 Mr. Usher, could you show the witness that photograph, please.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Ramadani, I ask you to look at that photograph. Can you

14 tell the Court what that is a photograph of? I see you're having to put

15 on your glasses. Yes. First of all, sir, do you recognise the scene

16 depicted?

17 A. This photograph is Bali Avdyli's house, and this is where the

18 massacre took place. People were burnt and shot here.

19 Q. Now, for the record, sir, you're pointing to an area in front of

20 what appear to be the remains of two buildings. Is the cowshed or the

21 barn where this massacre took place, is that building still --

22 A. Here -- it's not the shed here, but it was here, adjacent to the

23 shed.

24 Q. Yes. My question --

25 A. Here it was mined. It was at this point. Here is where it was,

1 where the shed was. It had two rooms and a corridor.

2 Q. Sir, is what you are saying that nothing remains of this shed, but

3 it's in the foreground, where you were pointing with your pointer?

4 A. Nothing remains, because when we returned from Albania, it was

5 blown up, and there are only two holes here.

6 Q. All right. Thank you, sir. One final photograph I'd like to show

7 you.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher.

9 Q. In your statement, sir, you refer to a wheelchair being positioned

10 in the doorway. I'm going to show you a photograph now, if you would,

11 please, and tell the Court if you recognise this particular photograph and

12 what appears to be the remnants of a wheelchair.

13 A. When they blew up the shed, they threw away this wheelchair.

14 Q. How, if at all, does that wheelchair compare with the wheelchair

15 that you saw on the 26th of March, 1999?

16 A. It's similar.

17 Q. Who was the crippled individual in the wheelchair?

18 A. Sait Hajdari was in this wheelchair.

19 Q. Do you recognise the lady depicted in that photograph?

20 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't have a translation of the answer.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness draw closer to the microphone,

22 please.

23 JUDGE MAY: Could you speak into the microphone, please,

24 Mr. Ramadani.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know this person. I knew

1 Sait Hajdari, and that's what his wheelchair was like.

2 MR. RYNEVELD:

3 Q. My question is: Do you know the lady depicted in that photograph?

4 A. No, I don't know this woman.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. I don't know this woman.

7 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

8 Remove the photographs, please.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Those are my questions, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] You gave your first statement on the 18th and

14 20th of July, 1999, in Orahovac; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And your second statement was given on the 26th of July, 2001; is

17 that right?

18 THE INTERPRETER: June. Correction.

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. How did it come about that you had to give a second statement

22 after giving the first one?

23 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question, please?

24 Q. Well, let's be brief. And your third statement was given on the

25 5th of October, 2001. Your second one was given on the 26th of June,

1 2001, and the third one on the 5th of October, 2001; is that right?

2 A. I gave these statements, but I didn't write down the dates when I

3 gave them.

4 Q. All right. Why did you give three statements?

5 A. When they came to see, themselves, we gave statements, and the

6 people who were asked told what happened in Krusha e Vogel.

7 Q. Upon whose initiative was it? Who were these people that came to

8 take your statement?

9 A. It was my initiative to make a statement, and the people who came

10 were investigators.

11 Q. And why didn't you state everything that is contained in your

12 third statement? Why didn't you say it when you were giving your first or

13 second statement? Why isn't it contained in your first or second

14 statement?

15 A. My account is the same in the first, second, and third statements.

16 JUDGE MAY: If you read the third statement, you will see that the

17 investigator gave the witness a map and clearly asked him to draw things

18 on the map.

19 In your first statement, were you asked - or your second - were

20 you asked to draw on a map, Mr. Ramadani?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE MAY: He plainly doesn't understand.

23 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Next question.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And your third statement, was it taken down after what you said?

1 A. These statements I gave were not given me to read, but they went

2 to the Court.

3 Q. In your first statement, you said that you looked into the

4 possibility of negotiating with the Serbs and that Ismail Arifi informed

5 you that an agreement had been reached and that the Serbs would protect

6 the Albanian population and the Albanians would protect the Serbs from the

7 KLA. So this was an agreement among the residents of the village; is that

8 right?

9 A. They did make an agreement. I wasn't present. Ismail Arifi made

10 the agreement with the Serbs. But they didn't keep the agreement. Those

11 that made it did not keep it. The criminals of Krusha e Vogel who shot,

12 burned 112 people, they shot 103 in one place --

13 Q. We heard that, and that can be found in your statement. I would

14 like you to concentrate on my questions alone now. Can you please tell me

15 how many members of the KLA there were in Mala Krusa?

16 A. There was no KLA. It didn't exist in KLA [as interpreted].

17 Because there was a cafe owned by Nikolic which the police used as a

18 station, and there the policemen beat and maltreated people. And even --

19 Q. I'm not asking you about the cafe. Please answer my question.

20 Just a minute ago you confirmed that an agreement had been reached and

21 that the Serbs would protect the Albanians and the Albanians would protect

22 the Serbs from the KLA. Now you're telling us that the KLA did not even

23 exist. So how could an agreement have been reached for the Albanians to

24 protect the Serbs from the KLA if the KLA did not exist? Why had an

25 agreement been negotiated if there was no KLA?

1 A. I don't know why they made this agreement. I say that there was

2 no KLA in our village. It didn't exist in our village.

3 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. You went on to explain something about

4 this cafe owned by Nikolic, at which the police used to gather. Is that

5 right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Even -- even children going to

7 school carried weapons. And the police sat there in the cafe of Dimitrije

8 Nikolic.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. All right. And is it true that these Serbs, Petkovic called Nuci,

11 Vuci Nikolic called Zivca, that you mention in your statement were in fact

12 members of the local police or, rather, local security that had been

13 established by the residents of Mala Krusa; is that right?

14 A. There were plenty of uniformed policemen there. They were almost

15 all policemen. And I don't know how they were organised. Sometimes they

16 were there, sometimes they were not. We didn't know who was a policeman

17 and who was not; they all had uniforms.

18 Q. All right. And do you remember that there was a local security

19 force in Mala Krusa consisting both of Albanians and Serbs and that there

20 had been an agreement for the Serbs to protect their fellow villagers,

21 Albanians, and vice versa, and to ensure that people could live in peace?

22 Was it like that or wasn't it?

23 A. The Serbs themselves were dressed as policemen, and even when

24 foreigners --

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ramadani, just concentrate, if you would, on the

1 question. The question was: Was there an agreement in the village

2 between the Albanians and the Serbs to protect each other?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was an agreement reached by

4 some elderly people. And I was not present. I don't know how they did

5 reach that agreement.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn now. It's time for the

7 break.

8 Mr. Ramadani, you're giving evidence. Would you please not speak

9 to anybody until it's over about it, and that includes the members of the

10 Prosecution. Could you be back, please, at half past eleven.

11 We will adjourn until then.

12 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Milosevic.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a small digression, Mr. May.

16 Yesterday, at the request of the other side, you asked that a document be

17 returned to you from the set of documents that was given to me yesterday,

18 so here it is, and the usher can take it.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the usher would.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. On the 25th of March, 1999, was there a clash between the KLA and

22 the police?

23 A. No, there wasn't.

24 Q. And why, then, did you seek shelter in the forest?

25 A. Because they attacked in the houses.

1 Q. Who attacked houses?

2 A. The police.

3 Q. Was that that police of yours that was in the village all the time

4 that you've been referring to? Both Serbs and Albanians were on that

5 police force. How is it that the police attacked houses?

6 A. They were Serb police. There were no Albanian police.

7 Q. All right. At that time when you went into the woods together

8 with the other farmers, did the members of the KLA withdraw with you or

9 not?

10 A. There was no KLA. Since there was no KLA there, how could the

11 members of the KLA come there? There were women, elderly people,

12 children.

13 Q. So there were no men with them. The men were elsewhere.

14 A. There were men. They were with us.

15 Q. And when you returned to the village around 1900 hours, as you

16 had put it, were they with you then, the members of the KLA?

17 A. There was no KLA, but it was us, the people, with children, with

18 women. All of us, we went to Sejdi Batusha's house. And there were

19 people there. There were children under 15 years of age. There were 40

20 children there.

21 Q. So you returned. You fled from the police, but you returned

22 although the police were in the village. Why did you return if it's the

23 police that you were running away from in the first place?

24 A. We didn't leave. We didn't go far from the village. We just left

25 the houses. We stayed near the stream, near the vineyard, near the

1 village. And in the evening, it started getting cold. There were

2 children. There were elderly people. There were girls. And the people

3 started feeling cold. So did the elderly people. And then we went to the

4 house of Sejdi Batusha. On that night, we stayed there. On the 26th, we

5 woke up at 8.00, and at 8.00, they started setting fire to the houses.

6 Q. All right. Please. You say that you returned to the village on

7 your own and you went to Qazim Batusha's house, and in the statement you

8 say that it was the police who forced you to enter the shed of Qazim

9 Batusha; is that right?

10 A. It was not a shed. It was a stable. They took us there. They

11 executed the people and they set fire to them, 103 people.

12 Q. That's what I was talking about. And how many of you were in this

13 group, all of you who were ordered to enter the stables?

14 A. There were 109 people. One hundred three people were left there.

15 Q. And the livestock, was it in the stables or the barn, then?

16 A. No, there wasn't. There wasn't.

17 Q. All right. It was empty. And how many policemen were in the yard

18 where the barn was?

19 A. There were about ten police who guarded us outside, and then there

20 came the villagers there. Police of the village they were, Serbs.

21 Q. Tell me, then: You say that a policeman appeared at the door of

22 the cowshed and started shooting at you. Is that the way it was?

23 A. That police really came, and there was attached to him some other

24 people. He was leading the other people. He entered the house and he

25 started opening fire among the people. He executed the people.

1 Q. And do you know who Avdyli Mehmet from Mala Krusa is?

2 A. Avdyli Mehmet from Mala Krusa is my neighbour.

3 Q. Was he with you then in those rooms?

4 A. He was there with me as well. There was also Mehmet Avdyli.

5 Q. Yes. And do you know that he mentioned in his statement that it

6 was not a cowshed at all, that it was a house? So where were you? Were

7 you in the cowshed or were you in the house?

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 JUDGE MAY: Can we have an interpretation, please.

10 A. It was a stall, either a hall, not a house. Some people entered

11 through the door with gun -- they opened fire against the people, and some

12 entered through the windows. They executed all the people. They set fire

13 to half of the people, and they were burnt half alive.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The witness has given his evidence about it. He

15 says it wasn't a house. Now, the next question.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. How many people survived this incident? Because you say that they

18 killed everyone.

19 A. Only six people survived. All the people were executed and burnt,

20 103 people. We don't know where these people are buried.

21 Q. You say that you're the first one who came to the door and that

22 you started to run away. Does that mean that you were standing by the

23 door?

24 A. I was inside. I was among the dead people. And then I went out.

25 I was on the right part, where the Serbs of the Krusha e Vogel were

1 there. They were setting fire to the people. Then I observed that there

2 were no people on the left part and it was possible for me to leave.

3 Q. All right. If the policemen were around the cowshed, and if, as

4 you say, they were setting it on fire, how did you manage to run away?

5 A. God knows how I managed to run away. I am burnt, my clothes were

6 burnt, and my right hand is burnt.

7 Q. Did somebody else escape together with you in the same group or

8 did you escape on your own?

9 A. There were six other people, two young boys, and after us, they

10 were caught and executed.

11 Q. And all of you escaped together, then, in that group, as you had

12 described it?

13 A. We were not all together, but we went as we could manage, just to

14 save our souls.

15 Q. A little while ago you said that you did not find the bodies of

16 the persons who were executed. Did you see these people being killed?

17 A. I was among them. And it is true that they were killed. They

18 were executed and then they were burnt.

19 Q. That means that these bodies that you assume were lost were burned

20 down. Is that your claim?

21 A. Yes, they were burned down. And what happened to their bodies, I

22 don't know, because after the war, when we came back from Albania, that

23 place was mined, and in that place we couldn't find anything but the shoes

24 and the wheelchair of that person that I mentioned. There were other

25 people who were crippled and couldn't move, and mentally ill people.

1 Q. Does that mean that after that fire and after the killing, the

2 place was mined and, therefore, you could not approach it when you

3 returned?

4 A. We find -- we found only some shoes and a wheelchair. The

5 foundation of that house were blown up in the air. How did that happen?

6 I am not aware of this fact because I was not present. About the mining,

7 I don't know. You know it very well.

8 Q. All right. Tell me, how far away was the asphalt road from which

9 the other group shot at you?

10 A. The macadamised road is about 100 metres from the house, but they

11 didn't shoot from the asphalt road. They shot from here, not from the

12 asphalt road.

13 Q. From nearby. So they were from you -- they were shooting from two

14 sides at you.

15 A. I don't know what you mean. About the place of the event where

16 the people were executed and burned or you're speaking about another

17 place?

18 Q. I mean what you said in your statement. You say that the other

19 group was shooting at you from the road as you were running away. So one

20 group was shooting at you from the site that you had described, and the

21 other one was shooting at you from the road. Does that mean that you were

22 being shot at from two different sides?

23 A. I was being shot at from the place I came out of the house. I

24 came out into the not-asphalted way. They shot at us, but, luckily, we

25 were not killed.

1 Q. All right. So from how many sides were they shooting at you, from

2 two sides, from three sides, from one side? From how many sides were they

3 shooting at you?

4 A. From there, we were three people. We were walking towards the

5 road of Krushe e Madhe. They shot at us from the village and from the

6 asphalt road until we entered the stream towards the mountain.

7 Q. So they were shooting at you from two places; is that right? From

8 two sides, that is. From the asphalt road and from the village itself.

9 A. Both from the asphalt and from the village itself they were

10 shooting at us while we were leaving the place.

11 Q. All right. Can that mean that from two sides -- from the two

12 sides where the shooting was coming from, could that have been the police

13 and the KLA, that they were shooting at each other and that you were

14 caught up in the crossfire?

15 A. There was no KLA in the asphalt road, and there was no KLA in the

16 village. But it was the Serbs of the village of Krusha e Vogel. They

17 surrounded the place, the village; some were in the asphalt road and some

18 were near the houses, from where they shot at us.

19 Q. All right. Now you say the Serbs from Mala Krusa. So it's the

20 Serbs, the villagers, who had set fire to their very own village. And a

21 little while ago, you said it was the police who came in and set fire to

22 the village. So who did it, actually?

23 A. Those people who destroyed the house, they destroyed the houses of

24 the Albanians. They were only the houses of the Albanians looted by the

25 Serbs.

1 Q. All right. Just give me a brief answer to the following

2 question: If they were shooting at you from two sides, wouldn't they be

3 shooting at each other that way as well?

4 A. I gave my answer. Those which I said, from the asphalt road and

5 from the village. They didn't shoot against each other. The asphalt is

6 down, and the village is in the side.

7 Q. All right. Since you mention in your statement the headquarters,

8 is it true that the KLA was near that house that you refer to as the

9 headquarters?

10 A. There was no KLA in our village. There didn't exist even in the

11 vicinity of our village such a KLA.

12 Q. All right. But I'm asking you to clarify this which I do not

13 understand. Why are you mentioning a house now whereas in your first

14 statement you mention headquarters? Why the difference?

15 JUDGE MAY: Whereabouts is it in the statement?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in these two statements. I

17 can't waste time searching for it now in the statement, but --

18 JUDGE MAY: Before you go on, you will tell us where it is. If

19 you're going to put things to witnesses, they must have the chance of

20 dealing with it properly.

21 Now, you can tell us where this is or we'll go on to another

22 question.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is the witness denying the fact that

24 he refers to headquarters in the first statement?

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you are not going to put things to

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1 witnesses without referring them to the statement and where it is. And

2 then, no doubt, afterwards when you find it you claim there is some sort

3 of bias. That's one of the sleights which you [Realtime transcript read

4 in error "I"] use in cross-examination.

5 Now, before you go on, if you want to ask this question, you must

6 tell us where it is in the statement so we can check to see where it

7 says. Then if it's a fair question, you can ask it.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right. Obviously,

9 now it is hard for me to find it in these three statements, but I will

10 have it marked for you and then I'll give it to you. And I'll move on to

11 my next question now, because, otherwise, I'll waste a lot of time.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. In your second statement, you say that the Serbs removed the house

14 and the mortal remains of the people who were there and that they threw

15 them into the Drin River and that that is what you know. Is that correct

16 or not?

17 A. I don't know about this fact because I was not present there when

18 they shot. And I don't know what they have done with these.

19 Q. All right. If there are no witnesses concerning these events,

20 does that mean that you are the sole witness of these events?

21 A. I am a witness about the fact that they were executed and burnt.

22 The Serbs of Krusha e Vogel did these things with the help of the people

23 from the neighbouring villages.

24 Q. Are there any other eyewitnesses?

25 A. Yes, there are.

1 Q. Can you say their names? Who are these other eyewitnesses?

2 A. They will come here and witness for themselves.

3 Q. All right. Can you give us their names, though?

4 A. There was mentioned here Mehmet Krasniqi. He is a witness here.

5 Declares that the people were executed and burnt.

6 Q. All right. Do you know who Dimitrije Nikolic and Djordje

7 Cvetkovic are?

8 A. Yes, I know them very well.

9 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. I've noticed a mistake in the

10 transcript which is serious enough and should be changed. At line 21, it

11 has me quoted as saying, "That's one of the sleights which I use in

12 cross-examination." It should read, "That's one of the sleights which you

13 use in cross-examination." The matter should be made plain.

14 Yes. We'll continue.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Are they people from your own village?

17 A. They are of our village.

18 Q. And were they members of the local security that you had?

19 A. We don't know, because at that time they were mobilised.

20 Q. All right. You say that in the village there were no members of

21 the army. Is that right?

22 A. The Serb army was at the asphalt road and in the vicinity. In the

23 village, I myself didn't see. Perhaps there have been, but I didn't see

24 with my own eyes.

25 Q. You say that Nebojsa Nikolic - and you said that he was killed at

1 Pastrik, as a reservist of the MUP - wore a green camouflage uniform.

2 A. I don't know whether it was a uniform, but he went as a

3 volunteer. I knew this when I came back from Albania.

4 Q. All right. But just now you told us that the army was not in the

5 village but rather on the asphalt road. Does that mean that the army was

6 outside of the village?

7 A. Perhaps it was also in the village, but for myself, I didn't see

8 it. From where I was gathered with the population, I didn't see the army.

9 Q. Will you please answer the question. Why did you state in your

10 first statement that the village had been shelled and that this was the

11 reason why you left your houses, whereas in the third statement you say

12 that the artillery had not been used? How was the village shelled if the

13 artillery had not been used?

14 A. They fired from armoured vehicles, and they fired on my house, and

15 the bullet is inside and was given to the investigator. I don't know

16 where it is now.

17 Q. All right. Was the artillery used or not, please? Just tell me

18 that.

19 JUDGE MAY: Where does it say the artillery wasn't used?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's what I'm asking him, Mr. May,

21 to tell me whether the artillery was used or not. I just want an answer

22 to that question.

23 A. The artillery was not used. They merely fired from armoured

24 vehicles.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Fired from what?

2 A. From the asphalt, at the Albanians' houses.

3 Q. Was there some artillery fire coming from a larger distance? For

4 example, mortars that were fired at the KLA? So not from the village but

5 from the distance, was there firing directed against the police that was

6 in the vicinity of the village? Was there a conflict there at all?

7 A. There was no conflict.

8 Q. All right. In your municipality of Orahovac, do you know how many

9 conflicts there were between the police and the KLA?

10 A. I don't belong to Rahovec municipality but to Prizren

11 municipality.

12 Q. All right. Well, let me change my question. Do you know how many

13 conflicts there were in your municipality and in your vicinity between the

14 police and the KLA?

15 A. I don't know of any conflict having taken place in our village or

16 of the KLA being involved in any clashes, not one.

17 Q. I'm asking you about your area. Do you have any information of at

18 least a rough number of the KLA members that got killed in the fighting

19 with the police and the army?

20 A. No. There was nothing of this kind.

21 Q. Your area, Prizren, and that part that is close to Albania,

22 suffered intense bombing or was subjected to intense bombing. Do you know

23 anything about the NATO bombing?

24 A. There was no NATO bombing until the 26th. Around there, there

25 wasn't any at all.

1 Q. Now, tell me, please: Do you know how many people in your area

2 were killed as a result of NATO bombing?

3 A. Not a single person was killed by the NATO bombing, and nor did

4 NATO bomb the villages.

5 Q. All right. So if I understood you well, you claim that during

6 those conflicts starting on the 24th of March, nobody got killed, no

7 Albanian got killed as a result of NATO bombing, nor were there any people

8 that were killed, any members of the KLA that were killed during fighting

9 with the police or the army. Is that what you're claiming?

10 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered these questions. He has

11 given his answer both about the KLA and about the NATO bombing. He's made

12 that quite plain. Now, Mr. Milosevic, time is running out. Do you have

13 any more questions of the witness?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do have more questions.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So that means if no KLA members were killed in the fighting, if

17 nobody was killed in NATO bombing, then everybody that was killed, as you

18 claim it, were civilians, and they were killed by the Serb army and the

19 police. Is that the gist of what you are telling us here?

20 A. Albanians were killed only by the Serbian police. That's in the

21 village of Krusha e Vogel. Only the Serbian police, and also local

22 villagers who joined them.

23 Q. And by trying to portray all of those who were killed as victims

24 of the Serb police, do you perhaps try to cover up the fact that some of

25 the people were killed as a result of the fighting and some of the people

1 were killed as a result of the bombing? Please think carefully over this

2 question and give me an answer.

3 A. They were all shot by the Serbian police. They were shot, and 112

4 people were shot and burnt in one place; and in another, 103. This was

5 the Serbian police.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

7 A. Alongside with the village. Serbian villagers -- the Serbian

8 villagers wanted to ethnically cleanse the village.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Tapuskovic, have you any questions, please?

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

11 questions for the witness.

12 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

13 Mr. Ryneveld?

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Very briefly, Your Honour, two areas.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

16 Q. Mr. Ramadani, in cross-examination, you were questioned as to

17 whether or not you were sure that these people who you left behind in the

18 barn were in fact dead. When you came back, you came back to your village

19 of Krusha e Vogel?

20 A. On the 4th of June, we came back. I think it was the 4th.

21 Q. And you have lived back in that village since the 4th of June of

22 1999; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, in the village.

24 Q. Have you seen any of those people who were in the barn with you,

25 other than the ones who escaped with you, have you ever seen any of those

1 people alive since?

2 A. I saw Mehmet Krasniqi.

3 Q. That's the only one?

4 A. I saw also Agim and Bajram.

5 Q. And these are people that escaped with you; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. These are people that escaped with me.

7 Q. Other than the people who escaped with you, did you see any others

8 alive since you returned?

9 A. These 103 people remained there. They -- they are no longer

10 alive. They were burned.

11 Q. Thank you. One other area that I might ask you to try another

12 look at.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, could you assist?

14 Your Honours, I propose to show the witness photograph 0210321006,

15 and I'm going to ask that he look at it before it goes on the ELMO,

16 perhaps, to orient himself. This, Your Honours, is in relation to

17 cross-examination about the route and the location of the asphalt road, to

18 assist the Trial Chamber in terms of distance.

19 Q. First of all, sir, do you recognise -- you're looking at the

20 photograph. It's an aerial photograph. Do you see the yard of Sejdi

21 Batusha?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. And before we put it on the ELMO, do you see the road

24 leading to Qazim Batusha's barn, where it used to be? Do you see that?

25 A. Just a moment. Yes. Here it is.

1 Q. Yes. All right. And then looking towards the top of the

2 photograph, beyond the line of trees, there seems to be a horizontal

3 line. Is that the asphalt road or is that something else?

4 A. No. That road is not asphalted.

5 Q. All right.

6 A. This is a dirt road.

7 Q. Yes. All right. Perhaps if you could put that on the ELMO now,

8 you could explain to the Judges where Sejdi Batusha's yard was and where

9 you walked to the barn location.

10 A. This is Sejdi Batusha's house. This is where we stayed. And from

11 here, they took us out onto the road and divided the men from the women

12 and the elderly. And they told the women, "Go drown in the Drin if you

13 like. Go to Albania if you like." Some children were with them --

14 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you to retell the story. I'm asking you if

15 you would point out where the men were taken to the barn.

16 A. Right. From here. They separated us here. Women went over

17 there, and we went along here to Qazim Batusha's front door. And we went

18 in there. And that's where the shed is, in --

19 Q. Can you --

20 A. -- middle between these destroyed houses and --

21 Q. And you've been shown a photograph where you say the foundation of

22 what was the shed is still visible.

23 Now, if you look at the top of the photograph, there is a line

24 just beyond the trees. Do you see that line running across the -- no.

25 Farther up. Point your -- farther. Farther up towards the top of the

1 photograph. Top of the photograph.

2 A. Here?

3 Q. No. Sir --

4 A. Here?

5 Q. -- do you see the top of the photograph?

6 A. Here? Ah. Ah, here.

7 Q. Yes. What is that?

8 A. This is -- this is the paved road. This is the main road.

9 Q. Is that the asphalt road to which you refer in your statement?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And finally --

12 A. Yes. Yes. This is the asphalted road.

13 Q. One more question about this map, or about this photograph. You

14 have described in your statement your route of escape. Go back to the

15 location of the barn and show with the pointer, if you would, your route

16 of escape, please.

17 A. From here, we went out here. Along here, that's where my house

18 is. And we went through here and through -- and we stopped a little bit

19 here and then we went on. We went on down and came out on this road, this

20 dirt road that goes to Krushe e Madhe. That's where that road is. And

21 from the asphalt, they fired at us.

22 Q. Thank you, sir.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Those are my questions. I hope that assists.

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ramadani, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

25 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to

1 go.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Mr. Usher, as you escort the witness, could you please return with

5 Mehmet Avdyli.

6 Again, while we're waiting for the witness, Your Honours, the next

7 witness describes the same incident. Therefore, I do not propose to show

8 maps or photos to this particular witness, to save time. Just so you know

9 we're talking about the identical incident.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

16 WITNESS: MEHMET AVDYLI

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

19 Q. Mr. Avdyli, do I understand correctly, sir, that you're 43 years

20 old?

21 A. No. I'm 35.

22 Q. All right. Thank you very much. I've got that information

23 correct.

24 You're of Kosovo Albanian ethnicity, are you, sir?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And I understand you lived all of your life in Krusha e Vogel; is

2 that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Are you married?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many children do you have?

7 A. I have three; two sons and a daughter.

8 Q. Now, sir, did you give two statements to the investigators of the

9 Office of the Prosecutor; on the 4th of April, 1999, and then again on the

10 5th of October of 2001?

11 A. Yes, I did make them on the 4th of April, but the second one, I

12 don't remember the date.

13 Q. All right. And just recently, on the 7th of March, 2002, did you

14 appear before a presiding officer of this Tribunal and give a solemn

15 declaration that the contents of those two statements were correct to the

16 best of your information and belief?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the statements which are attached, might

20 those be marked as an exhibit in these proceedings, Your Honours?

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: While those are distributed, I propose to read a

23 very brief summary of what this witness has indicated in those

24 statements.

25 Your Honours, you will find that he indicates that the entire

1 village of Krusha e Vogel, which to the best of his estimation has about

2 400 inhabitants, that they were all civilians, and there were both Serbs

3 and Albanians living there, and they lived in relative harmony until after

4 the airstrikes began by NATO on the 24th of March, 1999.

5 He then indicates that on or about 3.00 a.m. on the 25th of March,

6 1999, Serb tanks entered his village. This event caused the villagers,

7 including his wife and children, to flee to a nearby forest. He says that

8 at daybreak, the Serb tanks fired for about an hour upon those people

9 hiding in the forest. He saw that the MUP or police were taking away

10 vehicles and tractors from the village and observed the village being

11 progressively burnt down by the Serbs.

12 At about 9.00 in the morning on Friday, the villagers were

13 captured by the Serb forces. The men were separated from the women and

14 children. The women were instructed to go to Albania and chased away.

15 The group of men and boys totaled about 110, and according to the

16 witness's statement, they ranged in age from 13 to 72 years of age.

17 Apparently the group was searched, had their wallets and identity cards

18 confiscated. He says that they were forced to kneel on the ground with

19 their hands behind their heads and with their heads on the ground. If

20 anyone raised their heads, they were subjected to severe beatings on all

21 parts of their bodies.

22 He then describes in his statements how the group was taken to the

23 house of Haxhi Batusha where all of the 110 males were forced inside this

24 two-bedroom house. Included in that group of 110 was a man who was an

25 invalid and was confined to a wheelchair. He says that at the time, the

1 house was intact and had not been hit by any shells prior to the group

2 being forced inside. Once inside, they were subjected to abuse, and while

3 being verbally abused, the Serb forces opened fire with firearms through

4 the windows.

5 At the completion of the shooting, he says he saw a policeman

6 throw hay on top of the bodies and then set fire to the hay. He says not

7 all of the victims were killed by gunfire but some of the survivors were

8 subsequently incinerated by the ensuing fire.

9 The witness then describes how he escaped the burning house and

10 later observed the MUP officer stealing a motor vehicle owned by his uncle

11 and that he saw how the police continued to feed the house fire with maize

12 stems to intensify the fire. He says the village burned for the next few

13 days. He fled to the forest and eventually received medical attention for

14 the severe burns he suffered during the fire.

15 While leaving Kosovo for Albania, he and two others were detained

16 by the Serb police, tied to a heater, interrogated, and accused of being

17 members of the KLA. In his statement, the witness provides the names and

18 ages of the majority of persons killed during the execution at the house

19 or barn of Mr. Batusha.

20 That is a very brief summary. Obviously, I've left out many of

21 the details. And I'm sorry, I didn't get the exhibit number for the

22 statement while it was -- while I was reading in the summary, so I've

23 delayed that. Might that be given one now?

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Prosecutor's

25 Exhibit 227.

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] You gave your first statement in April of 1999 in

5 Albania; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where did you give your second statement?

8 A. In Kosova.

9 Q. Why was it necessary to give a second statement after giving the

10 first one?

11 A. Because it was necessary -- because it was a very tragic case in

12 my village, when more than a hundred men, young boys and old men, lost

13 their lives.

14 Q. Did you graduate from school?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So you are working the land. You have been working the land ever

17 since you started working; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was any member of your family a member of the KLA?

20 A. No.

21 Q. In your statement dated October 5th, 2001, you state that five of

22 the residents of your village were members of the KLA, but they were not

23 your relatives; right?

24 A. They joined the KLA after the war, and before, there wasn't any

25 KLA at all, and I never had any contact with the KLA.

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1 Q. Yes, but you spoke of the time in the beginning of the war, and in

2 your statement you said that five farmers were members of the KLA. Is

3 that right or not?

4 A. No, that's not right. No.

5 Q. All right. And these people whose names you gave in your

6 statement, do you know them well?

7 A. Yes, I know them very well.

8 Q. Do you know, when did they become members of the KLA?

9 A. I saw them after the war in uniform.

10 Q. When after the war?

11 A. After we came back from Albania. This was very late, maybe -- I

12 don't know what date, but it was very late, when anybody could.

13 Q. All right. And who was the commander of the KLA unit to which

14 these five farmers belonged?

15 A. I don't know. I didn't even speak to them about this sort of

16 thing.

17 Q. All right. In your statement April 4, 1999, you stated that

18 everything was peaceful in the village until the NATO air raid started.

19 Nothing special or particular occurred prior to that; right?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Was your village bombed? I mean the village or the surrounding

22 area.

23 A. I didn't understand that very well.

24 Q. Was the area around your village, including your village, bombed?

25 A. What do you mean? When we were in the village or ...?

1 Q. Both when you were in the village and when you were outside the

2 village.

3 A. When we fled to the woods, there were gunshots. When the gunshots

4 came, we fled to the woods immediately.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: May I interrupt just for one moment? If Your

6 Honours are looking through the bis'ing package, you'll see that the 5th

7 of October statement is in fact missing. It's on its way. We have two

8 copies of the -- I have a copy, but apparently the package that was handed

9 in is missing that statement. So I just thought I -- it is on its way.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I think we probably got copies from the original

11 disclosure.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I just didn't want the Court to be

13 looking through the documents that were just handed in only to find that

14 they're not there.

15 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. When I refer to the bombing, I am referring to bombing from

18 aircraft, that is to say, throwing bombs out of an airplane.

19 JUDGE MAY: You're talking about the NATO bombing; is that right?

20 Is that what you want him to deal with?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want him to answer my question,

22 whether he knows whether the area around his village was bombed and

23 whether he saw that. I think that that is a perfectly clear question.

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Avdyli, the first question is this: Was your

25 village or the area round about bombed by NATO?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As long as I was in Kosova, it was

2 not.

3 JUDGE MAY: Then the question is: Was it bombed by anybody else,

4 from the air?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There was the sound of

6 machine-gun fire.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Did anybody bomb the village from the air?

9 A. No. As long as I was there, no.

10 Q. You say that there was no bombing, and in the statement dated the

11 4th of April, on page 2, in paragraph 2, you say that you saw a Serb

12 neighbour of yours turning off the light and taking his family into the

13 cellar. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you also go to the cellar in your house with your family?

16 A. No. No.

17 Q. You were not afraid of the bombing; is that right?

18 A. We were not scared by the NATO bombardment.

19 Q. You say that on the 25th of March, at 3.00 in the morning, you

20 heard tanks going by your house; is that right?

21 A. Around the village.

22 Q. By the village. And did they enter the village?

23 A. Yes, they did enter the village.

24 Q. And when they entered the village, what happened when the tanks

25 entered the village?

1 A. The people left. Once the tanks came into the village, the people

2 left for the mountains.

3 Q. You say that when dawn broke, that the tanks started shooting at

4 the upper part of the forest, that the shooting went on for about one

5 hour. Who were they shooting at, I mean the tanks, when they were

6 shooting at the upper part of the forest?

7 A. When they came, the forces of the army, we were up to the

8 mountain, so they were shooting towards us.

9 Q. So you were in that part of the forest at which they were shooting

10 from the tanks?

11 A. We went towards the woods. We sought refuge in the woods.

12 Q. I understand what you are saying. But if you say that they were

13 shooting at you while you were in the woods, does that mean that somebody

14 got killed by this fire coming from the tanks, somebody in the woods?

15 A. I don't know about anybody being killed in the woods because of

16 the tanks.

17 Q. So what were these tanks shooting at, then?

18 A. I don't know it even myself. They were shooting in the direction

19 of the people.

20 Q. Well, you were those people; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And nobody got killed?

23 A. No. No.

24 Q. Were there some other people there then when you say "these

25 people" or "those people"?

1 A. No.

2 Q. This Friday that you're referring to was the 26th of March, 1999;

3 is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now explain something to me that I do not understand. You claim

6 that you saw Serbs gradually burning the village on Friday, and further on

7 in your statement you say that on Friday, at 9.00 in the morning, 15

8 policemen entered the woods and took you to Haxhi Batusha's house, an

9 Albanian whose house is on the outskirts of the village, by the forest.

10 This is in your statement dated the 4th of April, page 2, paragraphs 5, 6,

11 and 7.

12 A. There were 15 police who entered the woods, because on the 26th,

13 they surrounded us.

14 Q. How big was Haxhi Batusha's house?

15 A. There were two rooms and a corridor. The house was one floor.

16 Q. A total of two rooms; right?

17 A. Yes. Two rooms and a corridor.

18 Q. You say that in these two rooms and in that corridor -- as far as

19 I could understand it, actually, these rooms were four by four metres;

20 right?

21 A. I don't know exactly. I haven't measured them. Perhaps it is

22 true.

23 Q. So you say 110 people managed to fit into these two rooms and that

24 one corridor; right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And when the policemen started shooting at you, what time was it

2 then?

3 A. I don't know exactly. I didn't have a wristwatch with me because

4 we were robbed of the wristwatches. They took our wallets and everything

5 we had in our possession. We were not allowed to have anything in the

6 hands. We were forced to have our hands up above our heads.

7 Q. Were they shooting at you through the doors and through the

8 windows or only through the doors?

9 A. In the room where I was, they were shooting at us through the

10 windows.

11 Q. All right. Ramadani Lutfi testified here before you concerning

12 the same event, and he said that you were not in a house. He said that

13 you were in a cowshed. He said that the policemen were shooting from the

14 door of the cowshed, and you say that you were in a house and that they

15 were shooting at you through the windows. Can you explain this in

16 somewhat greater detail? He was with you then; isn't that right?

17 JUDGE MAY: The witness can't give evidence about what somebody

18 else said.

19 Was this a house?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot give the statement of

21 anybody else. I'm speaking about myself. I was there in that room,

22 present, which had -- which -- and there was hay in that room. And what

23 happened in the corridor and in the other room, I am not well aware

24 about.

25 Shefqet Shehu was standing on foot after the executions, and I

1 have heard with my own ears that he said to the Serbs, "Are you doing

2 so?" And then they shot again Shefqet, who was a student of chemistry.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I'm going to draw your attention to page 2 of your statement,

5 where you say -- it's at the very bottom of the page: "The entire group

6 of men that numbered about 110 were crowded into two rooms of the house,

7 four metres by four metres, squashed into two rooms of the house."

8 That's why I asked you whether it was four by four. And you said

9 that you hadn't measured it.

10 So it was in these two rooms in that house. Now you say that --

11 JUDGE MAY: No. He also said that it could be true that it was

12 four by four.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not the point. The point is

14 that there is an enormous difference. Are we speaking about two rooms

15 four by four in a house or are we speaking about a cowshed? I can't

16 understand this.

17 JUDGE MAY: No. You are not here to make speeches. You will ask

18 questions. If you have any more questions -- don't interrupt. If you

19 have any more questions of this witness, you can put them to him.

20 Meanwhile, you're not to make speeches now. The witness has said it's a

21 house, and he's described it. He can't comment on what somebody else may

22 have said.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am addressing this comment to you

24 gentlemen. We are listening to such fabrications here that --

25 JUDGE MAY: This isn't the time to address comment to us. If you

1 are saying this witness has made up what he's told us about being present

2 during an execution, you put it to him so that he can answer. If you are

3 saying he's lying, you must put it to him about this sort of event.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I believe that both of them

5 invented this.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Please tell me --

8 JUDGE MAY: Very well. It should be put to the witness in terms.

9 You can't make these comments without giving the witness a chance to

10 answer.

11 What is being suggested, so you understand this, Mr. Avdyli, by

12 the accused is that you have invented this story about being present in a

13 house in which a hundred people were executed. Do you follow what he's

14 putting to you, what he's suggesting? What's your answer to this? Have

15 you made all this up?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I couldn't make it up. Nothing

17 could I make up. I have come here only to tell you the truth. Look how I

18 am burnt in the two hands and in all of my face. I'm all burnt. I have

19 these scars and signs here. I've come here to tell the truth.

20 JUDGE MAY: The transcript should reflect the fact that the

21 witness has shown the Court what appears to be the scarring on his

22 wrists.

23 Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Any more questions for the witness?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, within the time that I have

25 available, I shall certainly put more questions.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. The windows that they were shooting at you from, did they face the

3 same side of the yard or different sides of the yard?

4 A. They were from the side of the yard.

5 Q. So they faced the same side of the yard, these windows? How many

6 windows did this room that you were in have?

7 A. In the room where I was, there were two windows.

8 Q. Were they shooting at you from both or through both or through one

9 only?

10 A. They were shooting from one window, which I saw with my own eyes.

11 I've seen it with my own eyes from the window which looked at the yard.

12 Q. Well, you say that you fell on the ground as soon as the shooting

13 started.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And after that, they brought hay and they threw it all over you.

16 Is that your assertion?

17 A. They have burnt us. They put hay upon us.

18 Q. And when they were throwing hay at you, did they enter the room

19 that you were in?

20 A. I couldn't see them because I was among the dead people and among

21 the wounded people.

22 Q. Did they throw the hay in through the window or through the door?

23 A. I didn't see how they threw it.

24 Q. All right. Tell me, how long were you in that room where you

25 stayed with the dead?

1 A. I don't exactly know how long I stayed here, but there were so

2 many people blocked. They were wounded, severely wounded, and they had

3 some slight wounds. There was one, Muharrem Asllani. He was my

4 neighbour, and he had his arm cut by the machine-gun fire. He was blocked

5 from the fire. So when they started spreading hay upon the dead people, I

6 saw the -- I saw the people in blood. I could not be able to breathe

7 because my blood became very thick because of the smoke. And I came out

8 of the fire, and I said better die from the bullets rather than be burnt

9 alive.

10 Q. On page 3, in the middle, it says: "The group was forced into the

11 house around 11.00, and I escaped at about 1500 hours, after the smoke

12 became unbearable." And then further on, you say that you sustained burns

13 to your face from the flames that still raged on the bodies.

14 How is that possible? How can this room be on fire for several

15 hours, the same room that you were in, and how could you survive that?

16 How could you spend a few hours in these raging flames, as you had put

17 it? Even four hours later. There was four hours between 11.00 and 1500

18 hours when you escaped, and flames were still raging. How was it possible

19 for someone to spend four hours in raging flames regardless of whether he

20 is believed to be dead or alive or just wounded or not wounded at all or

21 even wrapped in something?

22 JUDGE MAY: Now, it's time there was a question.

23 Mr. Avdyli, you've heard what is being put by the accused. Can

24 you deal with it?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once more, I didn't understand the

1 question, please.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, that's understandable, considering how

3 long it was. What appears is being put is that there was a fire, and you

4 were able to stay in the room for several hours. How was that possible if

5 there was a fire going on?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not that it was on fire.

7 Raging flames, that's what it says here, at least in the translation.

8 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't -- I am not saying that I'm

10 making up this story, but I don't know exactly how long I stayed among the

11 dead bodies and among the fire. But since the dead bodies were blocked

12 and Muharrem Asllani started crying that he was being burnt -- I don't --

13 I don't know how long I stayed there in that fire and among the dead

14 bodies. So I came out of that place, and I say, "Better to die from the

15 bullets rather than be incinerated," like many other people died being

16 burnt, and I couldn't stand hearing their cries. I didn't have a

17 wristwatch. As I said it, we were robbed of everything that we had with

18 us.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what you're saying, then, is that you might

20 not have spent as long as four hours in that room?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Really, I don't exactly know how

22 many hours. I just know that I tried to escape and die from the bullets

23 rather than from the fire.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. My question is the following: How did you manage to escape since

1 there were police around there? That's your claim.

2 A. In that room, there were two windows, one window at the sides [as

3 interpreted]. I didn't come out of that window from where they were

4 shooting, which was siding the yard. I came out of the other window and

5 between the house of my uncle, Bali Avdyli, and I entered the cellar of

6 the house of my uncle. My uncle's house was near this house.

7 Q. All right. A while ago, in response to my question, you said that

8 both windows were facing the same direction. Now you say that one window

9 was on one side and the other window was on the other side. Please make

10 up your mind. Did both windows face the same way or did the room have

11 windows on both sides, on two different sides, and then you managed to

12 escape through one of the windows? So what is the truth out of all that

13 you have been saying?

14 A. This is not true. You are planning it. I say that this room had

15 two windows. The other one had one window, whereas the house had three

16 windows and a corridor. One window was at the side and the other was

17 opposite the yard. And it was not a big window; it was a small window.

18 Q. The fact that it was a small window does not mean that it can be

19 interpreted as an answer to the question that I put to you previously:

20 Which side did the windows face, the same side or different sides?

21 JUDGE MAY: He's given his answer, and it may not, considering the

22 magnitude of what happened, as the witness said occurred, matter which

23 side the window was. Now, Mr. Milosevic, technically you have another ten

24 minutes. Have you more questions for ten minutes? If so, we'll adjourn.

25 Or can we finish before lunch?

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, after the break I can complete

2 the remaining ten minutes. That's no problem.

3 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now.

4 Mr. Avdyli, could you be back, please, at half past 2.00 to finish

5 your evidence. Could you remember not to speak to anybody about it until

6 it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team.

7 We'll adjourn now until half past 2.00.

8 JUDGE KWON: Before we adjourn, I'd like the Prosecution to give

9 us some clarification. I understand the witness changed name from Avdyli

10 to Krasniqi after the war.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: After the war. That's in his statement, yes.

12 JUDGE KWON: But I noticed some various signatures which is in the

13 bottom part of his statement, in Albanian and in English. And there are

14 several. So what -- could you give us some clarification about that

15 later? I don't think that they are all -- that's consistent, one

16 writing. There's different writing. I notice there are some differences,

17 okay?

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. If I could perhaps report that after

19 the break. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn.

21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

22

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25

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I condensed this, and I will fit

4 within the ten minutes allotted to me.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. How did you manage to enter the house of your uncle since the

7 policemen were obviously in the yard of your uncle's house?

8 A. I entered from the lower part, from a door that is down below.

9 And I used a baby's nappie, and I wrapped my hands in that, but sometimes

10 they went round the side of the house. And then there was Sveta Tasic,

11 from our village, who took my uncle's car.

12 Q. Now, tell me, please, how did you then manage, and at what risk,

13 to escape from your uncle's house if the policemen were still there? Were

14 the policemen still there when you fled into the forest or had they

15 already gone at that time?

16 A. As long as I was there, I went also up to the second floor where I

17 saw the village -- the Serbs of the village who were still throwing hay on

18 top of the bodies. There was Slavisa Petkovic and Boro Stankovic who were

19 throwing hay on top of the bodies. And I saw this from the place where I

20 was.

21 Q. I'm asking you how did you manage to flee once again from your

22 uncle's house into the forest if the policemen were still there? Did you

23 wait for the policemen to leave or did you flee with them still there?

24 How did you manage to flee? That's my question.

25 A. I stayed there until late, until the evening. And after it got

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1 dark, I went down to the stream and then up into the forest.

2 Q. All right. And were they still there when you were trying to flee

3 or had they already gone at that time?

4 A. All day -- they were there all day. I saw them in my uncle's

5 cellar. I saw them all there. I saw the sons of --

6 Q. Yes, but as you were fleeing, as you were leaving, as you were

7 fleeing into the forest.

8 A. Just a moment. When I fled to the forest, there was none of them

9 left. Because if they had been there, I would have been a dead man. I

10 didn't seek shelter there, but I went there by chance, thinking that

11 perhaps they wouldn't come there, because they had searched all the houses

12 in the morning, and they had ransacked them and thrown all the clothes

13 about and the contents. And they did that in my uncle's cellar.

14 Q. All right. All right. Thank you very much. I can see that you

15 are saying untruths again.

16 I want to point the penultimate paragraph on page 3 to you when

17 you explain how you left your uncle's house, where you say: "I withdrew

18 into the forest where I stayed until midnight, looking at the house in

19 which there were dead people, and the policemen were feeding the fire

20 until late into the night," whereas now you claim that they'd already gone

21 when you fled. Is that so or not?

22 A. In the evening, they withdrew and stayed in the houses where they

23 were staying. And then when I went out, I didn't see any of them because

24 it was night, and I didn't see any policemen round about. If I had seen

25 one, I would have been a dead man.

1 Q. All right. It is quite clear, quite clear. In your second

2 statement, you said that you did not see the vehicles nor the weapons from

3 which they were shooting, and you said that they were shooting above your

4 heads. Is that right or not?

5 A. What do you think -- I don't understand this question very well.

6 What place are you talking about?

7 Q. Well, you said while you were in the forest there was artillery

8 firing directed at you, that you saw artillery pieces firing at you.

9 Didn't you say that?

10 A. Yes. That was before, when the people were sheltering in the

11 forest. That's when they fired.

12 Q. No. Prior to that, you said that you saw artillery firing at

13 you. And let me read to you what your statement contains. This is

14 paragraph 6 on page 1, or rather, on page 2, because the first page is

15 always a cover page, and I'm reading verbatim:

16 "I did not see either the vehicles or the weapons because they

17 were shooting towards the forest above our heads. They used heavy

18 artillery. We heard detonation as they were firing, and one tree was cut

19 into half by a shell."

20 This is the entire paragraph. So what is the truth here: what you

21 said before the break or what is contained in your statement?

22 A. That was on the 25th, when they fired on the population in the

23 village -- in the forest, not the day when I went out into -- not the

24 night when I went out into the forest myself. I'm talking about the night

25 later, on the 26th, when I went to the forest. I was injured, with all my

1 hands and face burnt.

2 Q. Yes. Yes. I am referring to the 25th, because that is the only

3 incident that you described that they fired at you while you were in the

4 forest. But what is the truth here: what you said before the break or

5 what is contained in your statement?

6 JUDGE MAY: I don't remember any discrepancy between the two.

7 You're referring here -- you were asked by the investigator, I

8 suppose: I have been asked if I know what types of weapons were being

9 used by the Serbs to fire upon the civilians from the villagers who were

10 hiding in the woods.

11 Do you remember that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They fired from below, where

13 they were positioned, with their military hardware. They fired from below

14 up into the forest, on the civilian population.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I would like to remind you

16 that this witness said here that they fired from the armoured personnel

17 carriers and that there was no artillery, but rather, that they were

18 shooting from machine-guns. This is what he said during his testimony

19 here. And I would like to remind you here that he did not see APCs, that

20 heavy artillery had been used, and that one shell even cut a tree into

21 half, and that they were shooting above their heads. So this is a

22 completely different description of events.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So let me continue. You --

25 JUDGE MAY: Your time is now virtually up, but the witness should

1 have a chance to deal with what you allege is a discrepancy.

2 Now, is there any discrepancy in what you've said about the

3 artillery or not? Was there artillery used?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 25th, when the forces took

5 position, we were in the forest, and then they fired artillery of various

6 kinds. Shells fired from below us when we were in the forest and a tree

7 was cut down there. And on the 26th, in the evening, I fled to the

8 forest. Because when we were in the forest, we couldn't actually see the

9 hardware they were using, though we knew where they were positioned.

10 JUDGE MAY: You can ask one more question, Mr. Milosevic.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would like you to grant

12 three more minutes to me, because you took up some of my time. I planned

13 this out carefully for ten minutes.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Please, can you tell me who dictated the persons of these people

16 that were allegedly killed? Did you know them, and how did you acquire

17 information on their years of birth, and under whose instructions did you

18 invent this description of events? What was promised to you in exchange

19 for this?

20 JUDGE MAY: There is a series of questions in that, one of which

21 is a suggestion that this witness has made up his evidence yet again, the

22 suggestion made again.

23 Now, Mr. Avdyli, this will be the last question you are asked,

24 because there are two or three questions in it.

25 First of all, in your statement you have listed those who were

1 executed. What is suggested is that this was dictated to you. Now, can

2 you tell us how you came to list those who were executed?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were all from my village. They

4 were all people I knew from my village.

5 JUDGE MAY: The list contains, it's pointed out, the various

6 ages. Where did you get the ages from?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We got them because I knew, more or

8 less, roughly, how old they were, because I was born there in that

9 village.

10 JUDGE MAY: Now, it's suggested that you've invented this, indeed

11 all your evidence. What's your answer to that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't invented this at all.

13 I haven't done this myself. I haven't written this myself. I haven't

14 imagined this. I knew all these things, and I knew how old these people

15 were.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Has the amicus got any questions?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I ask another question?

18 JUDGE MAY: No, Mr. Milosevic. You've had your time.

19 THE ACCUSED: Okay.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] I would like to kindly ask you to just clarify

23 this issue that had bee